PE Strength and Conditioning classes

One other tidbit that is a factor into why people get annoyed- 2-3 years ago, the biggest Kool-Aid drinkers were peddling some other reason they were better than you too.

People just don't like being told anything.

It's fake.
It's a religion.
You have been brainwashed.
How dare you challenge me.
That's racist.
That's PC.
You are a bully.
You obviously haven't considered the other viewpoint.

Which ones am I forgetting?

I totally get all that. As I said before, I don’t and would never begrudge anyone from doing what they feel best helps their kids. We all, at least from my experience with the guys who consistently post on here, have what’s best for our kids in mind. Personally, I’d been here at Salem for 6 years and we had really struggled with a lot of things. First and foremost was speed. We (my DC and I) first went to TFC to try to get some new ideas. I believe strongly in what we’ve done because we’ve seen it work. We changed because what we were doing was not working and truthfully, we weren’t winning and we were having a hell of a time getting our kids to buy in. If you’re seeing results with what you’re doing, why change?  Just block out all the crack pots and stay the course.  Where I get frustrated is with guys who question things yet they’re struggling just like we did and still doing the same crap. If it’s not broke, don’t fix it...but if it is broke, try something different. And believe me, 17 years in that was a really hard leap to take.

Head Idiot wrote:

tincup1215 wrote:I guess... if you don't agree with the philosophy or mindset behind of any of it and believe you can do it better, why does it bother you if others like it?  Wouldn't you want your competition to be doing something you believe doesn't work?  

I get it that the "cult" behind it is annoying, no doubt about that.  But it's like when Crossfit started becoming a thing and guys (though not in a HS training aspect like this) swore by it and even had some of their football/Track teams doing Crossfit workouts.  When I saw that, I immediately laughed and thought "Please keep doing that... please"

I have no issue ignoring them.  In fact, I have for the most part.

My thing is, eventually the loudest people always get heard by the lowest common denominator of fans and other coaches and eventually people start asking you why you aren't doing that.  Whether it be a workout, an offense, or a defense, it eventually all trickles down and people start expecting it.  Especially if you haven't had a good year that past year and they did.

Exactly. It's hard enough to get kids to buy in to the weight room. But this makes it even harder...."look at those jerks lifting all those weights. Man, they aren't smart and efficient like we are with our fancy Freelap timer and Science!"

Teetime wrote:People just don't like being told anything.

It's fake.
It's a religion.
You have been brainwashed.
How dare you challenge me.
That's racist.
That's PC.
You are a bully.
You obviously haven't considered the other viewpoint.

Which ones am I forgetting?

Sexist.
Misogynistic.
You're a Russian bot.

Ironically I think Forreston has used a lot of Crossfit in their football training.

https://www.google.com/amp/www.journalstandard.com/article/20150627/SPORTS/150629472%3ftemplate=ampart

center wrote:Ironically I think Forreston has used a lot of Crossfit in their football training.

https://www.google.com/amp/www.journalstandard.com/article/20150627/SPORTS/150629472%3ftemplate=ampart

Yeah. Denny was (and still is, I think) a big CrossFit guy. I don't know what Forreston is doing now that he left.

With that being said Denny also had 3 D1 football players on a 1a football team. I have to think that had a lot to do with his success.

I just saw this annoyingly bad take on Twitter:

"If an athlete can't control his bodyweight, he has no chance of controlling his body with an additional external resistance like a barbell or weight. He must own his body weight before progressing into the main movements and beyond."

We have a 6'3", 275lbs 8th grader. Kid wears size 14 shoes. Hands like catcher's mitts. He is also the strongest squatter, bencher, and dead lifter in the middle school we have (in absolute terms, of course). But, he couldn't do a pull-up or push-up if his life depended on it. I guess that the next time he comes in to the weight room, I tell him, "Sorry, Brucey...you can't lift today. Come back when you can do a pull-up."

Our nose tackle this year was a first-team all-Stater. Best defensive lineman in our conference and you can make a good argument that he was the best defensive PLAYER in the conference. 6',4", 300+lber who is going to be playing football in college next year. Can't do a pull-up and probably can't do many push-ups. Never saw him do any pistol squats. But the kid can total well over 1000lbs in the squat, bench and dead lift, took on double and triple teams all year, and still ended the year with over 50 tackles. That's a pretty good CAREER for most nose tackles. I guess in hindsight, all that weight lifting was a huge waste of time for him...

Do people really believe this hubris or is it just some epic troll job?

This stuff has really struck a cord with you hasn’t it?! Again, I’d encourage you to continue doing what you’re doing...the results you speak of are awesome. I’ve always been a guy who didn’t like the ‘kool aid’ drinkers as HI put it. I’ve used that line many times myself. I totally get what you said a bit ago regarding having trouble motivating kids to get in the weight room etc. and then having to battle all these guys talking about the different stuff they’re doing. It can be a struggle for sure. We as I stated had a different situation as we hadn’t won in a long time even before I got here. To keep doing the same things just wasn’t working for us. Now, we’ve had buy in and seen great results not only in speed but also strength...you also have to remember we’ve had one decent season that ended with a first round loss so it’s nothing compared to what many teams have done year and year.

lefty120 wrote:This stuff has really struck a cord with you hasn’t it?!  Again, I’d encourage you to continue doing what you’re doing...the results you speak of are awesome. I’ve always been a guy who didn’t like the ‘kool aid’ drinkers as HI put it. I’ve used that line many times myself. I totally get what you said a bit ago regarding having trouble motivating kids to get in the weight room etc. and then having to battle all these guys talking about the different stuff they’re doing. It can be a struggle for sure. We as I stated had a different situation as we hadn’t won in a long time even before I got here. To keep doing the same things just wasn’t working for us. Now, we’ve had buy in and seen great results not only in speed but also strength...you also have to remember we’ve had one decent season that ended with a first round loss so it’s nothing compared to what many teams have done year and year.

I guess that I just don't understand why my own experiences are so markedly different from what the TFC guys are saying

Another example...my own kid. He does virtually no track work. No form running drills or backward lunges over a low hurdle with a PVC pipe or any of those things. No timed sprints. No Freelap timer. No RPR. He does jump (box jumps 1x a week, broad jumps 1x a week and then max effort jumps on a Just Jump system). But the bulk of his training is built around relatively low rep, high weight squatting, pressing, and dead lifting. He also pulls vertically and horizontally and does a lot of hinging. In fact, for every 1 rep of an anterior-dominant movement, he does at least 2 reps of a posterior- dominant movement.

The result? He's been a 2-way varsity starter since his freshman year and was a unanimous 1st-team all-Conference offensive lineman at a playing weight of no more than 200lbs. Also 2nd team on the DL and a 2nd Team all-Area player as a junior.

He is the biggest badass on the team. Our all-State nose tackle? My kid was the toughest guy he went against all year.

The point of this post isn't to brag up my kid, which I understand is what I have done. But here is a kid who has done virtually no speed work. Almost all of his sports training is lifting heavy shit and getting massively stronger than the guys he is playing against and that has resulted in him being one of the top players in a really good football conference.

So that is the disconnect. I don't understand why my personal experiences (the strongest dudes are usually the best players) are so different than what the TFC guys preach.

19delta wrote:I just saw this annoyingly bad take on Twitter:

"If an athlete can't control his bodyweight, he has no chance of controlling his body with an additional external resistance like a barbell or weight. He must own his body weight before progressing into the main movements and beyond."

We have a 6'3", 275lbs 8th grader. Kid wears size 14 shoes. Hands like catcher's mitts. He is also the strongest squatter, bencher, and dead lifter in the middle school we have (in absolute terms, of course). But, he couldn't do a pull-up or push-up if his life depended on it. I guess that the next time he comes in to the weight room, I tell him, "Sorry, Brucey...you can't lift today. Come back when you can do a pull-up."

Our nose tackle this year was a first-team all-Stater. Best defensive lineman in our conference and you can make a good argument that he was the best defensive PLAYER in the conference. 6',4", 300+lber who is going to be playing football in college next year. Can't do a pull-up and probably can't do many push-ups. Never saw him do any pistol squats. But the kid can total well over 1000lbs in the squat, bench and dead lift, took on double and triple teams all year, and still ended the year with over 50 tackles. That's a pretty good CAREER for most nose tackles. I guess in hindsight, all that weight lifting was a huge waste of time for him...  

Do people really believe this hubris or is it just some epic troll job?

I played 4 years of D3 football and couldn't do a un assisted pull up until I was 39.

19delta wrote:

lefty120 wrote:This stuff has really struck a cord with you hasn’t it?!  Again, I’d encourage you to continue doing what you’re doing...the results you speak of are awesome. I’ve always been a guy who didn’t like the ‘kool aid’ drinkers as HI put it. I’ve used that line many times myself. I totally get what you said a bit ago regarding having trouble motivating kids to get in the weight room etc. and then having to battle all these guys talking about the different stuff they’re doing. It can be a struggle for sure. We as I stated had a different situation as we hadn’t won in a long time even before I got here. To keep doing the same things just wasn’t working for us. Now, we’ve had buy in and seen great results not only in speed but also strength...you also have to remember we’ve had one decent season that ended with a first round loss so it’s nothing compared to what many teams have done year and year.

I guess that I just don't understand why my own experiences are so markedly different from what the TFC guys are saying

Another example...my own kid. He does virtually no track work. No form running drills or backward lunges over a low hurdle with a PVC pipe or any of those things. No timed sprints. No Freelap timer. No RPR.  He does jump (box jumps 1x a week, broad jumps 1x a week and then max effort jumps on a Just Jump system). But the bulk of his training is built around relatively low rep, high weight squatting, pressing, and dead lifting. He also pulls vertically and horizontally and does a lot of hinging. In fact, for every 1 rep of an anterior-dominant movement, he does at least 2 reps of a posterior- dominant movement.

The result? He's been a 2-way varsity starter since his freshman year and was a unanimous 1st-team all-Conference offensive lineman at a playing weight of no more than 200lbs. Also 2nd team on the DL and a 2nd Team all-Area player as a junior.

He is the biggest badass on the team. Our all-State nose tackle? My kid was the toughest guy he went against all year.

The point of this post isn't to brag up my kid, which I understand is what I have done. But here is a kid who has done virtually no speed work. Almost all of his sports training is lifting heavy shit and getting massively stronger than the guys he is playing against and that has resulted in him being one of the top players in a really good football conference.

So that is the disconnect. I don't understand why my personal experiences (the strongest dudes are usually the best players) are so different than what the TFC guys preach.

I would say your difference in experiences is because you're a former lineman plowhorse and most TFC guys are probably former sprinters who think the heavy lifting plow horses just can't keep up with their speed.

I know they exist, but I doubt many of the TFC people are former linemen.

Head Idiot wrote:

19delta wrote:I just saw this annoyingly bad take on Twitter:

"If an athlete can't control his bodyweight, he has no chance of controlling his body with an additional external resistance like a barbell or weight. He must own his body weight before progressing into the main movements and beyond."

We have a 6'3", 275lbs 8th grader. Kid wears size 14 shoes. Hands like catcher's mitts. He is also the strongest squatter, bencher, and dead lifter in the middle school we have (in absolute terms, of course). But, he couldn't do a pull-up or push-up if his life depended on it. I guess that the next time he comes in to the weight room, I tell him, "Sorry, Brucey...you can't lift today. Come back when you can do a pull-up."

Our nose tackle this year was a first-team all-Stater. Best defensive lineman in our conference and you can make a good argument that he was the best defensive PLAYER in the conference. 6',4", 300+lber who is going to be playing football in college next year. Can't do a pull-up and probably can't do many push-ups. Never saw him do any pistol squats. But the kid can total well over 1000lbs in the squat, bench and dead lift, took on double and triple teams all year, and still ended the year with over 50 tackles. That's a pretty good CAREER for most nose tackles. I guess in hindsight, all that weight lifting was a huge waste of time for him...  

Do people really believe this hubris or is it just some epic troll job?

I played 4 years of D3 football and couldn't do a  un assisted pull up until I was 39.

Same here. Could not do any pull-ups through 4 years of D3 football. In fact, I couldn't do any pull-ups until I dropped almost 75lbs to get ready for US Army basic training. I could do pull-ups but I had lost almost 100lbs on my bench and my squat was literally nonexistent. College Delta would have absolutely destroyed Pull-Up Delta on the football field. And then College Delta would have celebrated with Domino's Pizza and a bottle of Jim Beam.

I see the neg rep. I'm ok with that. But...to the disciple who negged me, what did I say that violated TFC church doctrine?

I'm always looking for a new faith...here's your chance. Convert this infidel!

Teetime wrote:

When my sons were playing there they had a really nice weight room and tried to talk parents into speed training with a professional trainer at an off campus (for hire) facility. That guy was supposed to improve our son's 40 yard dash time by 2 or 3 tenths of a second. I remember laughing out loud when that was suggested. My laughter was met with glares from coaches and parents.

Why not just hire a track coach worth a shit and save the parents money?

We emphasize both but are probably closer in thinking to Tony Holler than Head Idiot. The biggest issue we fight is not lifting but eating. Our kids do not eat well, particularly in summer when they don't get breakfast and lunch from our school. All the lifting in the world doesn't matter when the kids do not eat anything at home. We when lose it has typically been because teams are more physical than us. This year was the first time in 3 years we lost to a team mostly due to speed. The schools that manhandle us have also almost always come from more financialy stable communities.

I don't think I've presented any ideas on how you should do things, but hey.

You guys are all missing out. BoFlex is the way to go if you are looking to train elite athletes

Bighitter11 wrote:You guys are all missing out.  BoFlex is the way to go if you are looking to train elite athletes

Personally, I'm a Total Gym guy. Strong abs, lean back, tight buns...

16 oz. Curls work also!

I am all about being open to new Ideas and Ways to get the most out of athletes but good lord I think I have had my fill with Tony Holler on twitter.  You would think he died on the cross for all of us.

https://twitter.com/pntrack/status/1098202945999511552

Bighitter11 wrote:I am all about being open to new Ideas and Ways to get the most out of athletes but good lord I think I have had my fill with Tony Holler on twitter.  You would think he died on the cross for all of us.

https://twitter.com/pntrack/status/1098202945999511552

When you're constantly surrounded by people that act as if you walk on water, maybe he does think that.

I mean, maybe I'm missing something, but looking at his school's athletic results, it's not like they've set the world ablaze with their astounding athletic success.  Their best sport is baseball which is probably the sport he is least associated with.

But hey, what do I know?

PS- Coaching Twitter is a revolting exercise in dick comparison.

Coach Holler can be a little much, he is a self described "heretic".

But his kid did win the 100 (new state record), 200, and 4x100 won (new state record), and 4x200.

tincup1215 wrote:Coach Holler can be a little much, he is a self described "heretic".  

But his kid did win the 100 (new state record), 200, and 4x100 won (new state record), and 4x200.

But, is one kid worthy of the cult following?  Uber talented kids can make us all look a lot smarter than maybe we are.

Spoken from personal experience.

True: But there were 3 other guys on the relays.

No coach is the end all be all for answers (even though plenty like to think they are). He has done some things that I really like that we have implemented into our program, but a vast majority of the other things he does like no practice on Fridays, 1 hour max practices, etc... That stuff is not for us and doesn't fit.

As my sprints coach and the offensive coordinator said after we heard him talk "So basically we should never practice, never lift, and only show up if we are going to win". He likes to take things to the extreme