PE Strength and Conditioning classes

center wrote:stud sprinter is nursing a hamstring.

He ran a 10.46 today in prelims. Hamstring must be better.

Am I reading this right? Moore was the ONLY Plainfield Central kid in the finals? So Plainfield Central finishes in 9th Place overall but that is because all 20 points they have came from one kid who won 2 events?
https://www.ihsa.org/?url=/data/trb/3result2.htm

I thought I would see a long list of Plainfield Central #fastcats in the finals...

19delta wrote:

center wrote:stud sprinter is nursing a hamstring.

He ran a 10.46 today in prelims. Hamstring must be better.

Am I reading this right? Moore was the ONLY Plainfield Central kid in the finals? So Plainfield Central finishes in 9th Place overall but that is because all 20 points they have came from one kid who won 2 events?
https://www.ihsa.org/?url=/data/trb/3result2.htm

I thought I would see a long list of Plainfield Central #fastcats in the finals...

A couple of years ago there was a 3A sprinter/jumper, Cole Henderson (Pekin High School) who got 2nd or 3rd in state by himself (I think 1st in 100, 200, 2nd in LJ, 9th in 400, due to weather, it was a rolling schedule so he coasted in the 400 to be rested for the 200). Holler wrote an rticle/prosposed how a single athlete should not be allowed to win a team trophy. We were talking about it one day before practice if he would change his tune this year and the next two because he had one of the best sprinters in the nation. I guess it didn't matter one way or another.

Holler is the HC at Plainfield North.

Head Idiot wrote:Holler is the HC at Plainfield North.

Ok.

But Plainfield North only had 1 guy in the finals, right?

Correct on Moore being only finalist this year. Lot more last year and that’s when a lot of “feed the cats” took off.

Just got back from state meet. Moore ran 10.39 in 100. In 200 he started pulling up a good 50 meters from the finish. Looked like blown hamstring for a second. AND he still runs 21.12 and wins??

I understand all the feelings about Holler both for and against. But this kid is the fastest I’ve ever seen.

19delta wrote:

Head Idiot wrote:Holler is the HC at Plainfield North.

Ok.

But Plainfield North only had 1 guy in the finals, right?

No idea. Hopefully, my involvement with track ended permanently a year ago today.

19delta wrote:

mc140 wrote:

19delta wrote:Is it more beneficial to the track program to get good football players out for track or is it more beneficial to the football team to get good track athletes out for football? My opinion is that football is far more beneficial to track than track is to football.

Having said that, I think for a lot of football players, they would be WAY better off doing track in the spring than baseball. Or even not doing ANY sports in the spring and just concentrate on the weight room (except, of course, for kids who are REALLY good baseball players).

I'd rather have talented athletes. Our weight program was a joke in high school and we lost 3 games in 4 years.

But that is not the question I asked.

Depends on the program. Lake Park for years dominated with very few football kids. Crete this year won with almost all football kids.

#FeedTheHorses

Delta going 12 Rounds with Tony Holler on Twitter!!!!

Bighitter11 wrote:Delta going 12 Rounds with Tony Holler on Twitter!!!!

It was a pretty quick 12 rounds. 😆

Seriously...my hat is off to the guy. He has a creed to which he vociferously adheres and relentlessly protects.

I was expecting a prolonged debate. It was quick.

Everybody points to getting drafted as the metric for success for NFL linemen, when in reality a lot of the most long tenured, longest playing guys go undrafted because they're "too slow".

And as far as his creed, you bet your ass he's going to defend the brand. How else is he going to make that side hustle $$$ if he concedes there's more than one way to skin the cat.

Head Idiot wrote:I was expecting a prolonged debate. It was quick.

Everybody points to getting drafted as the metric for success for NFL linemen, when in reality a lot of the most long tenured, longest playing guys go undrafted because they're "too slow".

And as far as his creed, you bet your ass he's going to defend the brand. How else is he going to make that side hustle $$$ if he concedes there's more than one way to skin the cat.

I had a couple issues with his line of reasoning.

First, he said that a guy he coached at PN who went to the NFL (I think it was Kapri Bibbs?) did so specifically BECAUSE he trained for speed. That, without Holler's coaching him to be fast, this kid would have never made the NFL. To me, that is an AMAZING amount of hubris...for a coach to claim that he is the reason a guy makes it to the NFL.

Second, I would like to hear how he would explain my own son's progression. My kid does virtually no speed-specific work. His training is pretty much built around lifting heavy stuff. He is a beast. At 215lbs and about 13% BF, he squats high 400s, benches mid 300s, and dead lifts mid 500s.  He is also one of the fastest kids in our school. Now granted...we are a small school so perhaps I am ignoring the problems of small sample size. But I have seen the same effect with countless kid. They have a great winter in the weight room, and in the spring they are faster and jump higher. I don't have a FreeLap system, so maybe my thumb is a little quicker in the spring than it is in the fall, but our VJs are all measured on a Just Jump so that's consistent. Generally speaking, the vast majority of kids are going to run faster and jump higher. Am I the only guy who has experienced this? Is it not normal for kids to get faster and jump higher after getting stronger?

Also, I would like to know more about Marcellus Moore. Did Holler's methods build Marcellus Moore or was Moore already a gifted athlete when Holler got him? I would not be surprised in the least to find out that Moore was an elite athlete way back in junior high and even in grade school.

Oh...and Holler doesn't believe you should be skinning the cats...you need to be feeding them!

19delta wrote:

Bighitter11 wrote:Delta going 12 Rounds with Tony Holler on Twitter!!!!

It was a pretty quick 12 rounds.

Seriously...my hat is off to the guy. He has a creed to which he vociferously adheres and relentlessly protects.

Judges scored victory for you. You got him backed into the corner he had no response for your question and took his ball and went home.

Now he is telling Brian Bosworth off haha

Bighitter11 wrote:Now he is telling Brian Bosworth off haha

Dude needs something to do with his life. He's tweeted or retweeted 25 times in the past 24 hours. And that's just on the 2 accounts with his name on it.

I will say, for a democratic socialist he does seem really intent on you registering for his ultra capitalistic TFC conference. But I'm sure that money goes to help underprivileged seals learn to code switch in climate change flooded New York subway stations.

Marcellus came in to high school fast. He got second place in 3A 100 running 10.65 as a freshmen. His all time PR is 10.31. So 0.34 PR improvement in 3 years.

I’m actually afraid the kid will get worn out. He does a ton of indoor locally, national indoor meets, outdoor season, Prefontaine Classic, and is running in the U20 Pam-Am games this July.

Couple that with football recruiting visits (he has like 20 offers). That cat needs rest before he gets hurt.

Head Idiot wrote:

Bighitter11 wrote:Now he is telling Brian Bosworth off haha

Dude needs something to do with his life. He's tweeted or retweeted 25 times in the past 24 hours. And that's just on the 2 accounts with his name on it.

I will say, for a democratic socialist he does seem really intent on you registering for his ultra capitalistic TFC conference. But I'm sure that money goes to help underprivileged seals learn to code switch in climate change flooded New York subway stations.

I would like to nominate this for a Golden Belly, or whatever we used to call them, if not post of the year. And, that's my thing with how often some people post on twitter. I'm fully enjoying my summer break this year. I will freely admit I'm not doing much of anything and I don't have time to tweet as much as some of these guys do.

To get to 25 tweets/retweets for me takes me to May11th and most of that is retweeting things I find funny.

I didn't even attempt to count how many replies he's made. But, buy my book, or read my article, or come to my clinic!

center wrote:Marcellus came in to high school fast. He got second place in 3A 100 running 10.65 as a freshmen. His all time PR is 10.31. So  0.34 PR improvement in 3 years.

I’m actually afraid the kid will get worn out. He does a ton of indoor locally, national indoor meets, outdoor season, Prefontaine Classic, and is running in the U20 Pam-Am games this July.

Couple that with football recruiting visits (he has like 20 offers). That cat needs rest before he gets hurt.

The Edwards girl from Arcola who just got done playing softball for UofI and is going for a 5th year to play bball there next year was a 4 sport athlete in HS (volleyball, basketball, softball and track) Lifted every morning, went to practices/games and then would run at night. The UofI shut her down and she had to have surgery her Sr year because she had extremely bad leg issues from over use.

Bighitter11 wrote:Now he is telling Brian Bosworth off haha

The thing is, I agree with Holler on that. I like Boz a lot but that machine looked pretty dumb. I would certainly not want something like that in our weight room.

I agree with Holler on quite a few things, actuallu. I too hate "the grind" mentality and I think that athletes who are well-rested will both perform better and stay healthy longer. I think there is a lot of benefit in implementing those concepts with high school kids.

But the RPR thing...those guys are almost like members of some kind of cult. And the antipathy towards lifting...I just don't get that at all. I simply don't understand how someone can deny the idea that when someone gets leaner and stronger, they will also get faster and jump higher. I have seen that happen countless times over the 20 years that I have been a teacher and a coach. Heck...I have seen it in my own son. Are my eyes deceiving me?

19delta wrote:

Bighitter11 wrote:Now he is telling Brian Bosworth off haha

The thing is, I agree with Holler on that. I like Boz a lot but that machine looked pretty dumb. I would certainly not want something like that in our weight room.

I agree with Holler on quite a few things, actuallu. I too hate "the grind" mentality and I think that athletes who are well-rested will both perform better and stay healthy longer. I think there is a lot of benefit in implementing those concepts with high school kids.

But the RPR thing...those guys are almost like members of some kind of cult. And the antipathy towards lifting...I just don't get that at all. I simply don't understand how someone can deny the idea that when someone gets leaner and stronger, they will also get faster and jump higher. I have seen that happen countless times over the 20 years that I have been a teacher and a coach. Heck...I have seen it in my own son. Are my eyes deceiving me?

He coached at Harrisburg years ago and had several state champs. Saw some of those kids up close. They snuck into the weight room behind his back.

center wrote:

19delta wrote:

Bighitter11 wrote:Now he is telling Brian Bosworth off haha

The thing is, I agree with Holler on that. I like Boz a lot but that machine looked pretty dumb. I would certainly not want something like that in our weight room.

I agree with Holler on quite a few things, actuallu. I too hate "the grind" mentality and I think that athletes who are well-rested will both perform better and stay healthy longer. I think there is a lot of benefit in implementing those concepts with high school kids.

But the RPR thing...those guys are almost like members of some kind of cult. And the antipathy towards lifting...I just don't get that at all. I simply don't understand how someone can deny the idea that when someone gets leaner and stronger, they will also get faster and jump higher. I have seen that happen countless times over the 20 years that I have been a teacher and a coach. Heck...I have seen it in my own son. Are my eyes deceiving me?

He coached at Harrisburg years ago and had several state champs. Saw some of those kids up close. They snuck into the weight room behind his back.

I agree with you. I have greatly changed how I do my sprint workouts, I have gotten away from the "grind" and have more intense/quality workouts and have more rest. However, I still lift. I coach girls track and our program has benefited format. I feel it is a matter of the exercises/lifts you do and when you do them. We do not do any static, squats, dead lifts after spring break (usually first week in April). I had to twice work around football lifting programs where my football players were lifting heavy with the legs in April and May and it resulted in a lot of dead legs and injuries. Now we do one multi-jointed olympic lift, hamstring work, and pull ups. It has worked for us. My son is a distance runner in college and he does multi-jointed Oly lifts. The first thing I noticed when I started to go to college track meets was the athletes (esp. women sprinters, jumpers, hurdlers), were lean and muscular. There is not a lot of body fat, even among the throwers. They are lifting.

Agreed, the top girls HS track athletes lift or get left behind, even at 1A level. You can see that in the progression of medal winning throws in discus and shot over the last few years.

I just saw this article on the Twitter last night. Some really good thoughts and a smart response to "Feed The Cats" and "minimum effective dose".

Is Minimum Effective Dose the Right (or Wrong) Approach for Performance?


Some observations from the article that really stood out to me:

"Many great accomplishments have come from talented people working obsessively; very few achieve great things with casual effort and little time."

"Minimum effective dose comes from the unhealthy fear of overtraining. It’s a concept that avoids a problem that doesn’t occur as often as people think."

"Athletes now are scared to overtrain when they shouldn’t even be aware of the concept."

"I’m not recommending a path of excess to learn how much load an athlete can tolerate. I’m saying that undertraining is a problem with kids and modern society."

"Athlete confidence comes from their knowledge of how they respond to hard challenges and knowing whether they’re tired and what they can do."

"Instead of using dose-response all the time, maybe we should move toward the concept of rehearsal and modeling for performance to win more often."

"We now see a huge rush to apply elite sports science concepts to youth development, and we don’t expose the modern athlete to truly challenging training."

"Athletes need to adapt to the realities of what can be expected in a competition, such as double overtime in the playoffs and sprints without a soft-tissue therapist warming them up. It seems athletes are more fragile than ever. I think athletes are scared to get hurt because their trainers smell like fear when the bar bends or when the sprints get fast. An athlete may improve by doing a set of plyometrics, but if their teammates are trying to dunk, their resulting adrenaline levels likely help average kids to do amazing things."

"I don’t want to push an agenda where we go back to training that looks like never-ending conditioning, but I see so much overreaction to fears of injury that athletes are too comfortable. Some programs may succeed by barely challenging a kid or athlete just to keep them participating."

"Chronic optimal training becomes monotonous in a way. Athletes who stay in a very safe play zone, where everything is neat and tidy, often are unfamiliar with the extreme demands of elite competition."

"Exposing athletes to a maximum safe dose gives a coach more options when using popular small doses."