PE Strength and Conditioning classes

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Re: PE Strength and Conditioning classes

Post by 19delta on Wed Dec 12, 2018 4:43 pm

tincup1215 wrote:

It all comes down to finding that healthy balance between speed and strength.  Going to TFC with 3 fellow coaches (HFC and OC) really made us think more about what we do.  Luckily we are all pretty good friends and are on the same page of doing what's best for the athletes by utilizing our strengths as coaches.

I do agree with what you posted here.

The issue for me is training economy. I have kids in my PE S&C class for 30 minutes (after time to dress) 3 days a week and 1 day a week of a block period (of which not all the kids get because a bunch of them are in an AP chemistry lab). And, because we are a standards-based grading district, a big chunk of those block days are used for assessments.

So, if I'm going to add in speed drills, what am I going to cut out? Given that the biggest issue high school kids have is that they are weak, my #1 priority is getting them strong. The lifting gives the most bang for the buck. I just can't justify sacrificing that for speed drills.
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Re: PE Strength and Conditioning classes

Post by wolverine55 on Wed Dec 12, 2018 5:33 pm

I read a lot of Dixon's stuff on twitter and agree with most of it. Now, the science of strength and conditioning is not my area of expertise by any means...but reading his racehorses vs. plow-horses comment was a bit surprising.
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Re: PE Strength and Conditioning classes

Post by tincup1215 on Wed Dec 12, 2018 5:54 pm

19delta wrote:
tincup1215 wrote:I saw that last night, didn't realize that was you Delta.  Difference in philosophies is a good thing.  

I do wholeheartedly agree that if you just squat with zero speed work, you will not get faster.  You'll get stronger.  Doing just speed work with no lifting makes you faster, but not necessarily stronger.  When we talk about racehorse vs plowhorses...every racehorse I've seen is strong AND fast.

I have to disagree.

Strength work IS speed work. I would bet my next paycheck that I can take an untrained kid, put him on a lifting program built around ground-based, compound lifts done with free weights and that kid is going to run faster and jump higher in six months even if he doesn't do ANY running or jumping.

And not only will that kid be faster and jump higher. He will be stronger and will be more likely able to physically dominate kids who aren't as strong.

This would be a fun experiment if it were possible. The beauty of it all is we don’t have to agree, it’s the fact we can discuss and act on a more scientific approach because the kids are the winners in all of this regardless of the philosophy.

Gone are the days of “well this is how I did it in high school so that’s what I’m doing”. If you aren’t adapting, you’re gonna get left behind
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Re: PE Strength and Conditioning classes

Post by tincup1215 on Wed Dec 12, 2018 6:00 pm

As for your classes, with just 30 minutes 3 days a week, you have to lift as much as possible. No argument there
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Re: PE Strength and Conditioning classes

Post by Head Idiot on Wed Dec 12, 2018 10:23 pm

Thing is, teams with more 225+ cleaners, 300lb+ squatters ARE statistically more successful. At Sullivan I sent out a questionnaire to all the coaches in the CIC as to how many players they had that could achieve those lifts. Tuscola was first with 20ish and 30ish. They finished 2nd in state. St T was second and IIRC went at least 3 rounds deep. The rest of the conference shadowed the standings of the conference EXACTLY.

In the years we were good at CGB, I never walked off a field thinking anyone ran away from us. Maybe once or twice that last year when we were too fat and sassy. I walked off after a lot of our losses thinking we got beat up and pushed around. Including to Camp Point. They certainly didn't run away from us.
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Re: PE Strength and Conditioning classes

Post by 19delta on Wed Dec 12, 2018 10:50 pm

Head Idiot wrote:Thing is, teams with more 225+ cleaners, 300lb+ squatters ARE statistically more successful. At Sullivan I sent out a questionnaire to all the coaches in the CIC as to how many players they had that could achieve those lifts. Tuscola was first with 20ish and 30ish. They finished 2nd in state. St T was second and IIRC went at least 3 rounds deep. The rest of the conference shadowed the standings of the conference EXACTLY.

In the years we were good at CGB, I never walked off a field thinking anyone ran away from us. Maybe once or twice that last year when we were too fat and sassy. I walked off after a lot of our losses thinking we got beat up and pushed around. Including to Camp Point. They certainly didn't run away from us.

+1

It is shocking to me that this is even an argument.
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Re: PE Strength and Conditioning classes

Post by Head Idiot on Wed Dec 12, 2018 11:01 pm

Tomorrow I will try to see if I can post a photo of the power point graphic I made of the results.
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Re: PE Strength and Conditioning classes

Post by 19delta on Thu Dec 13, 2018 12:00 am

Head Idiot wrote:Tomorrow I will try to see if I can post a photo of the power point graphic I made of the results.

I think I entered some kind of Bizarro World. I can't wrap my head around the fact that there are high school football coaches who actually believe that kids being too strong is a thing they worry about. That is crazy talk, as far as I am concerned.

In a college, I can see it. When you already have guys who are maximally strong, I get working on other stuff. But most high school kids are either skinny and weak or fat and weak. The most important thing you can do for those kids is to give them the knowledge, tools, and opportunity to get strong.
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Re: PE Strength and Conditioning classes

Post by Head Idiot on Thu Dec 13, 2018 10:22 am

Here was the 2017 Central Illinois Conference final conference standings-
1. Tuscola
2. St T
3. Shelbyville
4. Warrensburg Latham
5. Central A&M
6. Clinton
7. Meridian
8. SOV

Here was the number of 300lb squatters and 225lb cleaners on each team-
1. Tuscola- 30 and 20
2. St. T- 20 & 15
3. Warrensburg- 18 & 16
4. Shelbyville- 17 & 12
5. A&M- 18 & 10
6. Meridian 7 & 3
7. Clinton 5 & 3
8. SOV 4 & 2

I realize I said it was EXACTLY the same, but Shelbyville's numbers were entirely in their Sr class that year and WL had many underclassmen as witnessed by this year's 3-6 record for Shelbyville and WL's 7-2. Clinton and Meridian engaged in a 6-3 battle week 9 at Clinton that Clinton won to move them ahead of Meridian in the standings.
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Re: PE Strength and Conditioning classes

Post by Bighitter11 on Thu Dec 13, 2018 10:25 am

Is there a difference between a Thoroughbred horse and a Plow Horse?

I would think a Plow Horse while strong is also slow.

I would think a Thoroughbred is both strong and fast.

Maybe that was more along the lines of what he was trying to say.
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Re: PE Strength and Conditioning classes

Post by Teetime on Thu Dec 13, 2018 10:53 am

When I played in 1972 and 1973 on the Griffin High varsity football team there wasn't much value placed on speed or strength. The winter AFTER my senior season they bought a "Universal Gym" that had four or five workout stations. We never had a weight room or weights at all.

When my sons were playing there they had a really nice weight room and tried to talk parents into speed training with a professional trainer at an off campus (for hire) facility. That guy was supposed to improve our son's 40 yard dash time by 2 or 3 tenths of a second. I remember laughing out loud when that was suggested. My laughter was met with glares from coaches and parents.


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Re: PE Strength and Conditioning classes

Post by Head Idiot on Thu Dec 13, 2018 11:05 am

Teetime wrote:When I played in 1972 and 1973 on the Griffin High varsity football team there wasn't much value placed on speed or strength. The winter AFTER my senior season they bought a "Universal Gym" that had four or five workout stations. We never had a weight room or weights at all.

When my sons were playing there they had a really nice weight room and tried to talk parents into speed training with a professional trainer at an off campus (for hire) facility. That guy was supposed to improve our son's 40 yard dash time by 2 or 3 tenths of a second. I remember laughing out loud when that was suggested. My laughter was met with glares from coaches and parents.

Much like testing in schools, football "edge gaining" has taken many forms over the years.  BFS (Bigger, Faster, Stronger), Plyometrics (box jumps, dot drills, speed ladders), speed training gurus (treadmill runs, sand pits, etc), Olympic lifting focus (cleans, snatches, etc), CrossFit (UGHHHH), and now the track football consortium. And this us just in my personal coaching career/experiences.

Ultimately, I think we need to quit trying to reinvent the wheel so we can keep up with the Joneses.  There are definitely programs that do things a little better than others, and may gain an athletic edge because of it.  Most of them just have better talent and better talent with better home lives.  I would be willing to bet that if you compared the average income and two parent homes for the teams in the 1-4A state championships to the rest of the field, those 8 teams would be in the top 5%.

Forreston, Camp Point (probably the lowest of the championship teams in those categories), GCMS, MF, Monticello, Byron, Bishop Mac and IC aren't exactly known for their poverty and broken homes.


Last edited by Head Idiot on Thu Dec 13, 2018 11:08 am; edited 1 time in total
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Re: PE Strength and Conditioning classes

Post by Head Idiot on Thu Dec 13, 2018 11:06 am

Bighitter11 wrote:Is there a difference between a Thoroughbred horse and a Plow Horse?

I would think a Plow Horse while strong is also slow.

I would think a Thoroughbred is both strong and fast.

Maybe that was more along the lines of what he was trying to say.
I think the condescending tone that usually accompanies those words as if the speaker has found a secret formula that the plowhorses are too stupid to understand is what usually riles the ire of people.
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Re: PE Strength and Conditioning classes

Post by tincup1215 on Thu Dec 13, 2018 11:19 am

Sometimes a school is lucky enough to have a coach on staff who has to much time on his hands and voluntarily does speed training for 45 minutes after school with all athletes 3 days a week at no expense to the kids, family, or school Very Happy

Football team still lifts 4 days a week either before or after school or during Applied Fitness PE class.
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Re: PE Strength and Conditioning classes

Post by Head Idiot on Thu Dec 13, 2018 11:20 am

Head Idiot wrote:Here was the 2017 Central Illinois Conference final conference standings-
1.  Tuscola
2.  St T
3.  Shelbyville
4.  Warrensburg Latham
5.  Central A&M
6.  Clinton
7.  Meridian
8.  SOV
I should also add how they did in the post season
1. Tuscola- 1A runner up
2. St T- Lost in 3A second round
3. Shelbyville- 2A semi finalists
4. WL- Lost in 1st round 1A playoffs
5. A&M- lost in 1st round 1A playoffs
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Re: PE Strength and Conditioning classes

Post by lefty120 on Thu Dec 13, 2018 12:11 pm

Some of you are taking this a bit to far.  The guys at the TFC clinic, and I can speak of it as I've gone the last 3 years and was there again last weekend, were simply saying that the emphasis put on strength training by some is to much to really help increase speed.  That's all.  To much heavy back squatting has been proven to inhibit speed development.  There is science behind that.  By no means were any of them saying to get rid of the weight room, to stop lifting, or to not still emphasize the weight room in your program, both off season and in season.  

A majority of the speakers I've listened to on this topic, and anyone on this board who was there this past weekend can attest, had some great ideas on how you can incorporate both into your weight room program.  Working on run fundamentals while still developing that fast twitch muscle fiber and getting stronger.  

I'm totally a guy who believes in the Jimmie's and the Joe's philosophy.  Some kids, some schools just have athletic kids.  But as a coach and father of a VERY average junior football and baseball kid, we've incorporated a ton of the ideas we've gotten from TFC since he was a freshman.  Our kids, even the average Joe's, have gotten faster AND continued to increase their weight room numbers at a rate that was actually better than it was when we solely focused on strength in our off season and in school program.  

Many ideas that come from the TFC clinics, which is where this conversation got sparked, are very outside the box...and that intimidates some.  I was one of those...I've done this for 20 years, however, I haven't seen one that we've incorporated in our program that hasn't benefited our kids somehow.  I agree, to each his own!  If something works for your kids, stick with it...we are all here to help kids.  Honestly, I always say, it's apples and oranges...they're both good for you.  As long as your emphasizing technique and fundamentals first, you're doing right by kids to help them get better.

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Re: PE Strength and Conditioning classes

Post by tincup1215 on Thu Dec 13, 2018 12:27 pm

^ +1
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Re: PE Strength and Conditioning classes

Post by Head Idiot on Thu Dec 13, 2018 12:51 pm

I don't disagree that there are ideas in there that can help you get better at things.

The comparison I think is like when someone runs a certain offense- be it spread, wing t, etc.  I can appreciate that it's your thing, and I may look into it to see if there's something in it I can use to fit my playbook and personality.  I think every coach can appreciate someone who says "This is what we do and why, if you like it, I'd love to help."  That's one thing I've always liked about the Leonards and their staffs and a number of the people on this very board.

Where I and many others get chafed is when that spread, or single wing, or whatever guy says- "This is the main reason why we're good.  We're smarter than you, we can outflank you, we go faster than you, we will run you into the dirt.  If you're not doing this you're backwards and not intelligent enough to be able to run with us."

Some of the TFC Kool Aid drinkers come off very heavily in that second vein. Kinda like CrossFitters.
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Re: PE Strength and Conditioning classes

Post by lefty120 on Thu Dec 13, 2018 1:02 pm

Absolutely true! And I hate cross fitters by the way!

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Re: PE Strength and Conditioning classes

Post by 19delta on Thu Dec 13, 2018 1:32 pm

lefty120 wrote:Some of you are taking this a bit to far.  The guys at the TFC clinic, and I can speak of it as I've gone the last 3 years and was there again last weekend, were simply saying that the emphasis put on strength training by some is to much to really help increase speed.  That's all.  To much heavy back squatting has been proven to inhibit speed development.  There is science behind that.  By no means were any of them saying to get rid of the weight room, to stop lifting, or to not still emphasize the weight room in your program, both off season and in season.  

A majority of the speakers I've listened to on this topic, and anyone on this board who was there this past weekend can attest, had some great ideas on how you can incorporate both into your weight room program.  Working on run fundamentals while still developing that fast twitch muscle fiber and getting stronger.  

I'm totally a guy who believes in the Jimmie's and the Joe's philosophy.  Some kids, some schools just have athletic kids.  But as a coach and father of a VERY average junior football and baseball kid, we've incorporated a ton of the ideas we've gotten from TFC since he was a freshman.  Our kids, even the average Joe's, have gotten faster AND continued to increase their weight room numbers at a rate that was actually better than it was when we solely focused on strength in our off season and in school program.  

Many ideas that come from the TFC clinics, which is where this conversation got sparked, are very outside the box...and that intimidates some.  I was one of those...I've done this for 20 years, however, I haven't seen one that we've incorporated in our program that hasn't benefited our kids somehow.  I agree, to each his own!  If something works for your kids, stick with it...we are all here to help kids.  Honestly, I always say, it's apples and oranges...they're both good for you.  As long as your emphasizing technique and fundamentals first, you're doing right by kids to help them get better.

What evidence do you have that too much heavy back squatting inhibits speed development? How much is "too much"? What is "heavy"?

Because my experience has been the exact opposite. The kids I have coached who had low bodyfat and were strong in the squat were ALWAYS the fastest kids and usually had the best VJs.
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Re: PE Strength and Conditioning classes

Post by 19delta on Thu Dec 13, 2018 1:35 pm

Head Idiot wrote:
Bighitter11 wrote:Is there a difference between a Thoroughbred horse and a Plow Horse?

I would think a Plow Horse while strong is also slow.

I would think a Thoroughbred is both strong and fast.

Maybe that was more along the lines of what he was trying to say.
I think the condescending tone that usually accompanies those words as if the speaker has found a secret formula that the plowhorses are too stupid to understand is what usually riles the ire of people.

Yes. Absolutely.

+1
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Re: PE Strength and Conditioning classes

Post by 19delta on Thu Dec 13, 2018 1:36 pm

Head Idiot wrote:I don't disagree that there are ideas in there that can help you get better at things.

The comparison I think is like when someone runs a certain offense- be it spread, wing t, etc.  I can appreciate that it's your thing, and I may look into it to see if there's something in it I can use to fit my playbook and personality.  I think every coach can appreciate someone who says "This is what we do and why, if you like it, I'd love to help."  That's one thing I've always liked about the Leonards and their staffs and a number of the people on this very board.

Where I and many others get chafed is when that spread, or single wing, or whatever guy says- "This is the main reason why we're good.  We're smarter than you, we can outflank you, we go faster than you, we will run you into the dirt.  If you're not doing this you're backwards and not intelligent enough to be able to run with us."

Some of the TFC Kool Aid drinkers come off very heavily in that second vein.  Kinda like CrossFitters.

+1

Yes. It's the cultish religious zeal that I find so aggravating.
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Re: PE Strength and Conditioning classes

Post by 19delta on Thu Dec 13, 2018 1:49 pm

Bighitter11 wrote:Is there a difference between a Thoroughbred horse and a Plow Horse?

I would think a Plow Horse while strong is also slow.

I would think a Thoroughbred is both strong and fast.

Maybe that was more along the lines of what he was trying to say.

It was pretty obvious to me that the "plowhorses" comment was meant to be disparaging.
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Re: PE Strength and Conditioning classes

Post by tincup1215 on Thu Dec 13, 2018 2:42 pm

I guess... if you don't agree with the philosophy or mindset behind of any of it and believe you can do it better, why does it bother you if others like it? Wouldn't you want your competition to be doing something you believe doesn't work?

I get it that the "cult" behind it is annoying, no doubt about that. But it's like when Crossfit started becoming a thing and guys (though not in a HS training aspect like this) swore by it and even had some of their football/Track teams doing Crossfit workouts. When I saw that, I immediately laughed and thought "Please keep doing that... please"
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Re: PE Strength and Conditioning classes

Post by Head Idiot on Thu Dec 13, 2018 3:19 pm

tincup1215 wrote:I guess... if you don't agree with the philosophy or mindset behind of any of it and believe you can do it better, why does it bother you if others like it?  Wouldn't you want your competition to be doing something you believe doesn't work?  

I get it that the "cult" behind it is annoying, no doubt about that.  But it's like when Crossfit started becoming a thing and guys (though not in a HS training aspect like this) swore by it and even had some of their football/Track teams doing Crossfit workouts.  When I saw that, I immediately laughed and thought "Please keep doing that... please"
I have no issue ignoring them. In fact, I have for the most part.

My thing is, eventually the loudest people always get heard by the lowest common denominator of fans and other coaches and eventually people start asking you why you aren't doing that. Whether it be a workout, an offense, or a defense, it eventually all trickles down and people start expecting it. Especially if you haven't had a good year that past year and they did.
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