Re: Coronavirus I

by net Tue Apr 28, 2020 1:49 pm

mc140 wrote:What if there is never a vaccine or one that has a very low success rate?

thank you debbie downer.

by Teetime Tue Apr 28, 2020 4:29 pm

dusty7 wrote:I saw this argument presented on social media yesterday... there have been 17 million people file unemployment and 54,843 deaths as of 10:45 am this morning. At what point do the job losses and the negative economic impact on millions of people outweigh the thousands of lives being saved? If we lose one job for one life, I do not think anybody would cry foul at the ratio of 1:1 but with a ratio of 1:309, I can understand why people are beginning to get frustrated.

Some questions I wish the government would/could answer, maybe you guys can help:
1. How many of the positive results are in nursing homes, assisted living facilities, and developmental homes?
2. What percent of individuals had underlying conditions and COVID 19 played a role in the death? (I saw a report that this number is 99.2% which I am not too sure I believe)
3. What is the accuracy of the tests that are being used? What is the +/-? All tests have flaws and there is a possibility for false positives and false negatives?
4. I know with more testing you will see more positives, but why are we still seeing large daily increases with this social distancing? If the incubation period is 14 days, why are we seeing increases after 5+ weeks?

Like many people, I am growing very frustrated with the whole situation, at times I understand it and at others, it does not make a whole lot of sense. My wife is expecting in September and yesterday she was told that if I am in the room or anywhere in the hospital, I will have to self-quarantine for 14 days, and we cannot be around my 3-year old son for 14-21 days, and neither can she. We are starting to brainstorm exactly how we can take care of him during this time.

I have to admit, I never tried to equate the number of jobs lost to the death total. I don't think 309 jobs are worth a life. I don't think 30,900 jobs are worth a life. Lives are too precious to equate with income. I'm sure I'm in the minority here at Turk's, but honestly, if we can save lives by hunkering down I'll do that.....even if the life I save is HI's.

by Head Idiot Tue Apr 28, 2020 6:27 pm

Teetime wrote:
I have to admit, I never tried to equate the number of jobs lost to the death total. I don't think 309 jobs are worth a life. I don't think 30,900 jobs are worth a life. Lives are too precious to equate with income. I'm sure I'm in the minority here at Turk's, but honestly, if we can save lives by hunkering down I'll do that.....even if the life I save is HI's.

I have to ask this- with that belief, how do you reconcile that with supporting individuals politically and perhaps financially who are pro abortion?

Not trying to start WWIII, it's just something I've always wondered.

I'll hang up and listen for your answer.

by Head Idiot Tue Apr 28, 2020 6:34 pm

dusty7 wrote:I saw this argument presented on social media yesterday... there have been 17 million people file unemployment and 54,843 deaths as of 10:45 am this morning. At what point do the job losses and the negative economic impact on millions of people outweigh the thousands of lives being saved? If we lose one job for one life, I do not think anybody would cry foul at the ratio of 1:1 but with a ratio of 1:309, I can understand why people are beginning to get frustrated.

Some questions I wish the government would/could answer, maybe you guys can help:
1. How many of the positive results are in nursing homes, assisted living facilities, and developmental homes?
2. What percent of individuals had underlying conditions and COVID 19 played a role in the death? (I saw a report that this number is 99.2% which I am not too sure I believe)
3. What is the accuracy of the tests that are being used? What is the +/-? All tests have flaws and there is a possibility for false positives and false negatives?
4. I know with more testing you will see more positives, but why are we still seeing large daily increases with this social distancing? If the incubation period is 14 days, why are we seeing increases after 5+ weeks?

Like many people, I am growing very frustrated with the whole situation, at times I understand it and at others, it does not make a whole lot of sense. My wife is expecting in September and yesterday she was told that if I am in the room or anywhere in the hospital, I will have to self-quarantine for 14 days, and we cannot be around my 3-year old son for 14-21 days, and neither can she. We are starting to brainstorm exactly how we can take care of him during this time.

Also, how many of those unemployed could or will potentially lose their life from this crisis either by immediate impacts such as starvation (probably really low), or suicide or perhaps years down the road from something they either started doing during this time, or lack of nutrition or lack of medical care (co worker of mine has had chest pains the past couple days- the hospital told him not to go to the ER).

Those statistics I'm sure would be impossible to track, but this is going to have a whole host of impacts past the right now.

by Head Idiot Tue Apr 28, 2020 6:37 pm

net wrote:
mc140 wrote:What if there is never a vaccine or one that has a very low success rate?

thank you debbie downer.

He has a point though. We can't hide forever.

by Head Idiot Tue Apr 28, 2020 7:52 pm

by ramblinman Wed Apr 29, 2020 9:38 am

Head Idiot wrote:
Also, how many of those unemployed could or will potentially lose their life from this crisis either by immediate impacts such as starvation (probably really low), or suicide

So, sort of like what is already happening now among first responders?

https://www.foxnews.com/health/top-manhattan-er-doc-commits-suicide-shaken-coronavirus-onslaught

https://nypost.com/2020/04/25/nyc-emt-commits-suicide-with-gun-belonging-to-his-dad/

Receiving relatively little press in all this debate is the mental and physical strain on our healthcare infrastructure and personnel. Hospitals are not staffed for this kind of influx of patients in such a short period of time.

My daughter is a nurse at one of Chicago's best and largest hospitals that has been treating hundreds of COVID patients for weeks now. After she does a shift on a COVID floor, she looks like this:

Coronavirus I - Page 26 Screenshot_2020-03-13_at_13.14.53

Coronavirus I - Page 26 Screenshot_2020-03-13_at_13.14.53

To be clear, that is not her image, but it might as well be. She tells me about how many of their policies, procedures and protocols have simply gone by the wayside because they are in a war. If that is happening at one of Chicago's best hospitals, imagine what is happening in the majority of Chicago area hospitals.

My 69 year old sister-in-law is a nurse at a suburban Chicago hospital that is not so large and not nearly as well reputed as my daughter's hospital. She tells me that 90% of their inpatients are COVID patients.

I am as concerned for their mental health as I am for their physical health. The sooner this thing can be over, the better. Opening up too soon, before the curves have been flattened, or before we are well into the down slope of those curves, will absolutely mean that the curve will not only lengthen because more people will become infected, but we will be setting ourselves up for spike after spike. From a public health perspective, opening up too soon is simply the wrong move at the wrong time.

by Head Idiot Wed Apr 29, 2020 9:59 am

I spent last night in full PPE in the quarantine unit, so please don't act like I don't know what the \"f\"ing is going on.

by ramblinman Wed Apr 29, 2020 12:18 pm

Head Idiot wrote:I spent last night in full PPE in the quarantine unit, so please don't act like I don't know what the \"f\"ing is going on.

Chill the eff out. Me posting what I did was in no way meant to imply that you don't know what is going on. If you inferred that, then you are wrong and you can go intercourse yourself.

by Head Idiot Wed Apr 29, 2020 1:17 pm

ramblinman wrote:
Head Idiot wrote:I spent last night in full PPE in the quarantine unit, so please don't act like I don't know what the \"f\"ing is going on.

Chill the eff out. Me posting what I did was in no way meant to imply that you don't know what is going on. If you inferred that, then you are wrong and you can go intercourse yourself.

Strong words.

by dusty7 Wed Apr 29, 2020 2:14 pm

Head Idiot wrote:
net wrote:
mc140 wrote:What if there is never a vaccine or one that has a very low success rate?

thank you debbie downer.
He has a point though. We can't hide forever.

Or can we? As long as the government keeps providing bailout money and incentivizing not working, we can keep this up for a long time.

Paying People Not to Work

At some point, people have to start making a living. The self-employed do not receive unemployment and small town America was already struggling, and this is going to kill small town America. Mom and pop shops will soon be a thing of the past if this whole thing keeps up. I am really worried about the Illinois and I, like millions of others, will be starting to looking to get out of this state.

by lefty120 Wed Apr 29, 2020 2:19 pm

So you're bringing the abortion conversation into the Coronavirus conversation...fair enough. So you're saying you're pro life, while sending millions back to work and into mainstream society risking what could end up being 1000's if not 100,000's of lives? The argument is the same regardless of which way you look at it. The pro life segment is also the segment that is clamoring for the re-opening of the economy...just like the pro choice segment is arguing to keep it shut down for a period of time. It's a catch-22 regardless.

by wolverine55 Wed Apr 29, 2020 2:20 pm

dusty7 wrote:
Head Idiot wrote:
net wrote:
mc140 wrote:What if there is never a vaccine or one that has a very low success rate?

thank you debbie downer.
He has a point though. We can't hide forever.

Or can we? As long as the government keeps providing bailout money and incentivizing not working, we can keep this up for a long time.

I understand that people need help and I also realize that I'm fortunate in that I'm getting my full teaching salary despite working maybe two hours a day on school stuff right now. But, it is insane how much money people are getting. My girlfriend's nephew quit his job and is getting so much unemployment he's "making" about $400 more a month than I am right now and her brother, who hasn't been working for years so it's not Coronavirus related, is getting about the same in monthly benefits that I make.

by lefty120 Wed Apr 29, 2020 2:21 pm

dusty7 wrote:
Head Idiot wrote:
net wrote:
mc140 wrote:What if there is never a vaccine or one that has a very low success rate?

thank you debbie downer.
He has a point though. We can't hide forever.

Or can we? As long as the government keeps providing bailout money and incentivizing not working, we can keep this up for a long time.

Paying People Not to Work

At some point, people have to start making a living. The self-employed do not receive unemployment and small town America was already struggling, and this is going to kill small town America. Mom and pop shops will soon be a thing of the past if this whole thing keeps up. I am really worried about the Illinois and I, like millions of others, will be starting to looking to get out of this state.

I think it's safe to say, regardless of what bailout money has been sent, it's not nearly enough for most average people to continue on this path for very long...regardless of what type of job, business, or industry they're in.

by lefty120 Wed Apr 29, 2020 2:22 pm

wolverine55 wrote:
dusty7 wrote:
Head Idiot wrote:
net wrote:
mc140 wrote:What if there is never a vaccine or one that has a very low success rate?

thank you debbie downer.
He has a point though. We can't hide forever.

Or can we? As long as the government keeps providing bailout money and incentivizing not working, we can keep this up for a long time.

I understand that people need help and I also realize that I'm fortunate in that I'm getting my full teaching salary despite working maybe two hours a day on school stuff right now. But, it is insane how much money people are getting. My girlfriend's nephew quit his job and is getting so much unemployment he's "making" about $400 more a month than I am right now and her brother, who hasn't been working for years so it's not Coronavirus related, is getting about the same in monthly benefits that I make.

Problems with the system...coronavirus or not!

by Teetime Wed Apr 29, 2020 2:48 pm

Head Idiot wrote:I have to ask this- with that belief, how do you reconcile that with supporting individuals politically and perhaps financially who are pro abortion?

Not trying to start WWIII, it's just something I've always wondered.

I'll hang up and listen for your answer.

I believe in the rule of law.

I'm a waffler when it comes to abortion...I admit it. I grew up opposed, in high school I attended anti-abortion demonstrations. In college I came to see that women have a case to make that a bunch of men should not be deciding their reproductive rights. I wish there would NEVER be an abortion, but I know there are good reasons for some of them. Occasionally, when I'm rocking one of my grandkids to sleep I think about how hard I would fight to save their lives and wonder how anyone could justify ending an innocent baby's life.

In the end (or maybe this is not the end of my waffling) I have to abide by the decisions of the Supreme Court of the United States. That is the rule of law. I realize that the SC might soon reverse Roe and then there will be a new rule of law. I'll be able to live with that as well.

Meanwhile, I support politicians that believe in and support my positions for the most part and some of them get some of my money.

Also, Lefty was right when he wrote:
"So you're bringing the abortion conversation into the Coronavirus conversation...fair enough. So you're saying you're pro life, while sending millions back to work and into mainstream society risking what could end up being 1000's if not 100,000's of lives? The argument is the same regardless of which way you look at it. The pro life segment is also the segment that is clamoring for the re-opening of the economy...just like the pro choice segment is arguing to keep it shut down for a period of time. It's a catch-22 regardless."

by OSUBucks Wed Apr 29, 2020 3:01 pm

Teetime wrote:
Head Idiot wrote:I have to ask this- with that belief, how do you reconcile that with supporting individuals politically and perhaps financially who are pro abortion?

Not trying to start WWIII, it's just something I've always wondered.

I'll hang up and listen for your answer.

I believe in the rule of law.

I'm a waffler when it comes to abortion...I admit it. I grew up opposed, in high school I attended anti-abortion demonstrations. In college I came to see that women have a case to make that a bunch of men should not be deciding their reproductive rights. I wish there would NEVER be an abortion, but I know there are good reasons for some of them. Occasionally, when I'm rocking one of my grandkids to sleep I think about how hard I would fight to save their lives and wonder how anyone could justify ending an innocent baby's life.

In the end (or maybe this is not the end of my waffling) I have to abide by the decisions of the Supreme Court of the United States. That is the rule of law. I realize that the SC might soon reverse Roe and then there will be a new rule of law. I'll be able to live with that as well.

Meanwhile, I support politicians that believe in and support my positions for the most part and some of them get some of my money.

Also, Lefty was right when he wrote:
"So you're bringing the abortion conversation into the Coronavirus conversation...fair enough. So you're saying you're pro life, while sending millions back to work and into mainstream society risking what could end up being 1000's if not 100,000's of lives? The argument is the same regardless of which way you look at it. The pro life segment is also the segment that is clamoring for the re-opening of the economy...just like the pro choice segment is arguing to keep it shut down for a period of time. It's a catch-22 regardless."

There's nothing in this statement that I could argue with. I guess my position on abortion is that I'm reluctantly pro choice.

by Head Idiot Wed Apr 29, 2020 3:18 pm

lefty120 wrote:
wolverine55 wrote:
dusty7 wrote:
Head Idiot wrote:
net wrote:
mc140 wrote:What if there is never a vaccine or one that has a very low success rate?

thank you debbie downer.
He has a point though. We can't hide forever.

Or can we? As long as the government keeps providing bailout money and incentivizing not working, we can keep this up for a long time.

I understand that people need help and I also realize that I'm fortunate in that I'm getting my full teaching salary despite working maybe two hours a day on school stuff right now. But, it is insane how much money people are getting. My girlfriend's nephew quit his job and is getting so much unemployment he's "making" about $400 more a month than I am right now and her brother, who hasn't been working for years so it's not Coronavirus related, is getting about the same in monthly benefits that I make.

Problems with the system...coronavirus or not!

Except he wouldn't be making that much if it weren't for the $600 a month tacked on my the feds during the rona panic.

by Head Idiot Wed Apr 29, 2020 3:22 pm

lefty120 wrote:So you're bringing the abortion conversation into the Coronavirus conversation...fair enough. So you're saying you're pro life, while sending millions back to work and into mainstream society risking what could end up being 1000's if not 100,000's of lives? The argument is the same regardless of which way you look at it. The pro life segment is also the segment that is clamoring for the re-opening of the economy...just like the pro choice segment is arguing to keep it shut down for a period of time. It's a catch-22 regardless.

I believe in giving people a choice in how to live their life (PS- women have a choice- except in rape- before they ever get into a position to have an abortion). Forcing them to not live their life for something that may not ever approach them is too much government over reach.

You can not put people in their houses for 18 months. At some point, you have to open up. Why not now? If it's always going to be there forever, you're going to have to do it at some point. Shit or got off the pot.

by dusty7 Wed Apr 29, 2020 6:12 pm

Saw a story similar to this Sweden's Approach to Coroniavirus last night. It is very interesting how this has worked in Sweden, although there are several variables that make this approach look successful when in fact it may not be, the responsibility is put on the people, not on the government.

The Swedish Prime Minister stated that the problem with closing everything and locking down is how do you open everything back up? That creates another challenge that is really difficult to solve, which I thought this was a very interesting remark given the challenges we are seeing the US defining essential and non-essential.

by lefty120 Wed Apr 29, 2020 6:35 pm

OSUBucks wrote:
Teetime wrote:
Head Idiot wrote:I have to ask this- with that belief, how do you reconcile that with supporting individuals politically and perhaps financially who are pro abortion?

Not trying to start WWIII, it's just something I've always wondered.

I'll hang up and listen for your answer.

I believe in the rule of law.

I'm a waffler when it comes to abortion...I admit it. I grew up opposed, in high school I attended anti-abortion demonstrations. In college I came to see that women have a case to make that a bunch of men should not be deciding their reproductive rights. I wish there would NEVER be an abortion, but I know there are good reasons for some of them. Occasionally, when I'm rocking one of my grandkids to sleep I think about how hard I would fight to save their lives and wonder how anyone could justify ending an innocent baby's life.

In the end (or maybe this is not the end of my waffling) I have to abide by the decisions of the Supreme Court of the United States. That is the rule of law. I realize that the SC might soon reverse Roe and then there will be a new rule of law. I'll be able to live with that as well.

Meanwhile, I support politicians that believe in and support my positions for the most part and some of them get some of my money.

Also, Lefty was right when he wrote:
"So you're bringing the abortion conversation into the Coronavirus conversation...fair enough. So you're saying you're pro life, while sending millions back to work and into mainstream society risking what could end up being 1000's if not 100,000's of lives? The argument is the same regardless of which way you look at it. The pro life segment is also the segment that is clamoring for the re-opening of the economy...just like the pro choice segment is arguing to keep it shut down for a period of time. It's a catch-22 regardless."

There's nothing in this statement that I could argue with. I guess my position on abortion is that I'm reluctantly pro choice.

Same

by lefty120 Wed Apr 29, 2020 6:42 pm

Head Idiot wrote:
lefty120 wrote:So you're bringing the abortion conversation into the Coronavirus conversation...fair enough. So you're saying you're pro life, while sending millions back to work and into mainstream society risking what could end up being 1000's if not 100,000's of lives? The argument is the same regardless of which way you look at it. The pro life segment is also the segment that is clamoring for the re-opening of the economy...just like the pro choice segment is arguing to keep it shut down for a period of time. It's a catch-22 regardless.
I believe in giving people a choice in how to live their life (PS- women have a choice- except in rape- before they ever get into a position to have an abortion). Forcing them to not live their life for something that may not ever approach them is too much government over reach.

You can not put people in their houses for 18 months. At some point, you have to open up. Why not now? If it's always going to be there forever, you're going to have to do it at some point. Shit or got off the pot.

I don't think I've heard anything about 18 months. That's an over reach. We've been locked down for a little over 5 weeks if I'm looking at this correctly in Illinois. I will never argue that the longer this goes on as far as lock down goes the worse for our country. We will have to re-open, and probably before it is entirely medically safe to do so to salvage what's left of our economy. The re-opening part is what's tricky. There's no right or wrong way to do it, that's for certain.

So it's too much government over reach to tell us to stay sheltered in place for any length of time as to not inflict harm on others, but it isn't too much government over reach to tell a woman EXACTLY how she can and cannot handle her own healthcare? Because at the end of the day, that's what this is about...women's health care.

by Head Idiot Wed Apr 29, 2020 8:06 pm

lefty120 wrote:
Head Idiot wrote:
lefty120 wrote:So you're bringing the abortion conversation into the Coronavirus conversation...fair enough. So you're saying you're pro life, while sending millions back to work and into mainstream society risking what could end up being 1000's if not 100,000's of lives? The argument is the same regardless of which way you look at it. The pro life segment is also the segment that is clamoring for the re-opening of the economy...just like the pro choice segment is arguing to keep it shut down for a period of time. It's a catch-22 regardless.
I believe in giving people a choice in how to live their life (PS- women have a choice- except in rape- before they ever get into a position to have an abortion). Forcing them to not live their life for something that may not ever approach them is too much government over reach.

You can not put people in their houses for 18 months. At some point, you have to open up. Why not now? If it's always going to be there forever, you're going to have to do it at some point. Shit or got off the pot.

I don't think I've heard anything about 18 months. That's an over reach. We've been locked down for a little over 5 weeks if I'm looking at this correctly in Illinois. I will never argue that the longer this goes on as far as lock down goes the worse for our country. We will have to re-open, and probably before it is entirely medically safe to do so to salvage what's left of our economy. The re-opening part is what's tricky. There's no right or wrong way to do it, that's for certain.

So it's too much government over reach to tell us to stay sheltered in place for any length of time as to not inflict harm on others, but it isn't too much government over reach to tell a woman EXACTLY how she can and cannot handle her own healthcare? Because at the end of the day, that's what this is about...women's health care.

1. The 18 months is in reference to the amount of time to get a vaccine. I have seen several suggestions we can't get close to "normal" without it.

2. Women have multiple choices to avoid pregnancy and take care of their "health" prior to killing a human. I don't believe anyone has ever, in the past 50 years, tried to legislate those.

Hell, I don't give a crap what women do, but to act like abortion is about "health" and not bailing someone out for irresponsibility is where I have an issue.

by OSUBucks Wed Apr 29, 2020 10:23 pm

Dr Fauci doesn't seem optimistic about sports in the fall. I was a bit surprised when I learned that we not only don't have accurate test kits available but many people who want to get tested can't get tested. To say that the US wasn't equipped to handle this Pandemic is an understatement.

https://nypost.com/2020/04/29/anthony-fauci-sports-might-not-happen-this-year/

by dusty7 Wed Apr 29, 2020 10:49 pm

I do not think there will be fall or winter sports next season. Can’t imagine how this may impact athletic budgets losing revenue from football and basketball not to mention the extreme negative impact on the kids and potential athletic future. High school sports are already struggling enough and this may be the first nail in the coffin towards kids only playing in travel clubs.

Hearing that alternate days for students and hybrid learning through Xmas is a possibility for areas where there are still high numbers of positive tests.

I wonder how Private schools are going to deal with an extension of e learning mandate. Will parents still pay full tuition for e learning? Many privates are struggling as is and I’m am sure this situation doesn’t help.

The decline in state revenue will inevitably lead to state cuts across the board in the 2021 fiscal year and we all know education is always the first to go.

I guess the Governors wife headed down to their $12 million estate in Florida and the Governor got quite defensive saying his family is not a part of politics and it should not even be brought up. I thought it was a valid point, all Illinois citizens should abide by these rules correct? Isn’t she an Illinois citizen? Guess if you have money rules don’t apply, to bad for all those people who wish they had jobs right now and could leave and never come back.

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