Re: Joe Biden Innocent or Not Guilty

by ramblinman Tue Nov 10, 2020 3:19 pm

dusty7 wrote:The Electoral College provides the smaller states a voice in the Presidential election, do their votes count more? Yes, and that was done by design by the Founding Fathers. They were smart enough to understand that majority rule will ultimately lead to mob rule. If the majority feels threatened than it is very easy for them to strip the rights away from the minority. We also must remember that the Constitution was written before the Bill of Rights so many were still fearful about the majority (larger states) taking away their rights which is why the Bill of Rights was added to create a Liberal Democracy so the rights of the minority are protected.

The only reason why our founding fathers did this is because slaves weren't allowed to vote, not because they had some sort of enlightened vision and ability to predict that majority rule would lead to mob rule. The electoral college gave states the ability to select electors based on the number of seats they hold in Congress. Slaves were counted as three-fifths of one person when determining representation in the form of House seats in the southern states. That created a system whereby, at the turn of the 19th century, Pennsylvania had 10% more citizens than Virginia, but Virginia had 20% more electors.

The system has been flawed and unfair from its very inception.

by 19delta Tue Nov 10, 2020 3:19 pm

dusty7 wrote:
ramblinman wrote:
tps wrote:
Huck wrote:
I think that ultimately, the SCOTUS would decide whether or not the Compact is legal.

Maybe true, but I like its chances. I would love to hear the formal argument against it that would be presented to the court.

just an opinion -
popular votes will give all power to cities. i don't like that cause i'm just a dumb hick...i'm not smart like you city guys...

So, let me see if I understand you correctly. You prefer that electoral college continues to be weighted in favor of the dumb hicks. Does that about cover it?

You might be dumb, but you are smart enough to know a rigged system in your favor when you see one.

Don't the opinions and concerns for these dumb hicks matter just as much as those in the city? The Electoral College provides the smaller states a voice in the Presidential election, do their votes count more? Yes, and that was done by design by the Founding Fathers. They were smart enough to understand that majority rule will ultimately lead to mob rule. If the majority feels threatened than it is very easy for them to strip the rights away from the minority. We also must remember that the Constitution was written before the Bill of Rights so many were still fearful about the majority (larger states) taking away their rights which is why the Bill of Rights was added to create a Liberal Democracy so the rights of the minority are protected.

Somebody mentioned earlier that majority rule is the foundation of our country or something along the lines of that but our Founding Fathers were very fearful of creating a Democracy. They were all for "majority rule by those in power" meaning the legislatures but not "majority rule by the people."

Here is a good 10 minute video to explain the real American Form of Government - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DioQooFIcgE&playnext=1&list=PLCDC7237D6EF2464B&feature=results_main&ab_channel=notdemocracy

Majority rule is but one of many principles of American representative democracy. The others are ideas like checks and balances, separation of powers, popular sovereignty, limited government, federalism, etc, etc.

The Electoral College, for all it's faults, is an example of majority rule as well as checks and balances.

by tps Tue Nov 10, 2020 3:27 pm

ramblinman wrote:
newcom wrote:Another opinion; I do not want the states of new York, & especially ca determining the President, in now way does it reflect the values of an entire country. CA is nuts period!

Why not just boot them from the union for being too big?

Hey, can we do that?

by Huck Tue Nov 10, 2020 3:30 pm

Of course its a problem. Everyone wants to win...

So it is about winning, not about getting it right. Okay.

I thought we were talking about picking a president?

We were. Point is, picking the president is not the end all, be all. Those in the minority may not get their way with the presidential selection, but that does not mean they aren't represented or under represented, as most arguments in favor of the EC imply.

by Head Idiot Tue Nov 10, 2020 4:48 pm

ramblinman wrote:
Head Idiot wrote:The point was that the election was close across the other 49 states in the popular vote.

It most definitely was not.

https://www.cnn.com/interactive/2020/11/politics/2020-vs-2016-election-map-charts/

That is the electoral college. Which has nothing to do with the popular vote.

From your link-

More than 74 million people cast votes for Biden and more than 70 million cast votes for Trump.

What is the difference between those two numbers?

by dusty7 Tue Nov 10, 2020 5:05 pm

19delta wrote:
dusty7 wrote:
ramblinman wrote:
tps wrote:
Huck wrote:
I think that ultimately, the SCOTUS would decide whether or not the Compact is legal.

Maybe true, but I like its chances. I would love to hear the formal argument against it that would be presented to the court.

just an opinion -
popular votes will give all power to cities. i don't like that cause i'm just a dumb hick...i'm not smart like you city guys...

So, let me see if I understand you correctly. You prefer that electoral college continues to be weighted in favor of the dumb hicks. Does that about cover it?

You might be dumb, but you are smart enough to know a rigged system in your favor when you see one.

Don't the opinions and concerns for these dumb hicks matter just as much as those in the city? The Electoral College provides the smaller states a voice in the Presidential election, do their votes count more? Yes, and that was done by design by the Founding Fathers. They were smart enough to understand that majority rule will ultimately lead to mob rule. If the majority feels threatened than it is very easy for them to strip the rights away from the minority. We also must remember that the Constitution was written before the Bill of Rights so many were still fearful about the majority (larger states) taking away their rights which is why the Bill of Rights was added to create a Liberal Democracy so the rights of the minority are protected.

Somebody mentioned earlier that majority rule is the foundation of our country or something along the lines of that but our Founding Fathers were very fearful of creating a Democracy. They were all for "majority rule by those in power" meaning the legislatures but not "majority rule by the people."

Here is a good 10 minute video to explain the real American Form of Government - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DioQooFIcgE&playnext=1&list=PLCDC7237D6EF2464B&feature=results_main&ab_channel=notdemocracy

Majority rule is but one of many principles of American representative democracy. The others are ideas like checks and balances, separation of powers, popular sovereignty, limited government, federalism, etc, etc.

The Electoral College, for all it's faults, is an example of majority rule as well as checks and balances.

Majority rule is one of the basic principles of our gov't but not a majority rule by the people a majority rule by the leaders. The Electoral College was developed because the regular citizens would lack sufficient information to choose directly and intelligently among leading presidential candidates, obviously, the slave issue that Ramblin mentions changed the dynamic of the Electoral college.

It is also important that we remember that in order to vote before until the 1820's, you had to be a landowning male in order to even vote, so only the leaders/wealthy were the only ones able to vote, that is definitely not majority rule. It wasn't until 1856 that the landowning requirement was eliminated in every state.

by BirdWatcher Tue Nov 10, 2020 6:14 pm

lefty120 wrote:This is interesting to me for the sole reason that since the pandemic started, I've compared Trumps handling of it as to that of Hoover

Remember, if Biden had been in charge in January, he would have allowed nearly 4 million Chinese to come to the US. And millions of Europeans... you know, so as not to appear racist or xenophobic.

I wonder how that would have worked out.....

by 19delta Tue Nov 10, 2020 6:16 pm

dusty7 wrote:
19delta wrote:
dusty7 wrote:
ramblinman wrote:
tps wrote:
Huck wrote:
I think that ultimately, the SCOTUS would decide whether or not the Compact is legal.

Maybe true, but I like its chances. I would love to hear the formal argument against it that would be presented to the court.

just an opinion -
popular votes will give all power to cities. i don't like that cause i'm just a dumb hick...i'm not smart like you city guys...

So, let me see if I understand you correctly. You prefer that electoral college continues to be weighted in favor of the dumb hicks. Does that about cover it?

You might be dumb, but you are smart enough to know a rigged system in your favor when you see one.

Don't the opinions and concerns for these dumb hicks matter just as much as those in the city? The Electoral College provides the smaller states a voice in the Presidential election, do their votes count more? Yes, and that was done by design by the Founding Fathers. They were smart enough to understand that majority rule will ultimately lead to mob rule. If the majority feels threatened than it is very easy for them to strip the rights away from the minority. We also must remember that the Constitution was written before the Bill of Rights so many were still fearful about the majority (larger states) taking away their rights which is why the Bill of Rights was added to create a Liberal Democracy so the rights of the minority are protected.

Somebody mentioned earlier that majority rule is the foundation of our country or something along the lines of that but our Founding Fathers were very fearful of creating a Democracy. They were all for "majority rule by those in power" meaning the legislatures but not "majority rule by the people."

Here is a good 10 minute video to explain the real American Form of Government - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DioQooFIcgE&playnext=1&list=PLCDC7237D6EF2464B&feature=results_main&ab_channel=notdemocracy

Majority rule is but one of many principles of American representative democracy. The others are ideas like checks and balances, separation of powers, popular sovereignty, limited government, federalism, etc, etc.

The Electoral College, for all it's faults, is an example of majority rule as well as checks and balances.

Majority rule is one of the basic principles of our gov't but not a majority rule by the people a majority rule by the leaders. The Electoral College was developed because the regular citizens would lack sufficient information to choose directly and intelligently among leading presidential candidates, obviously, the slave issue that Ramblin mentions changed the dynamic of the Electoral college.

It is also important that we remember that in order to vote before until the 1820's, you had to be a landowning male in order to even vote, so only the leaders/wealthy were the only ones able to vote, that is definitely not majority rule. It wasn't until 1856 that the landowning requirement was eliminated in every state.

Majority rule means the same thing today that it did in 1787.

by Head Idiot Tue Nov 10, 2020 6:25 pm

BirdWatcher wrote:
lefty120 wrote:This is interesting to me for the sole reason that since the pandemic started, I've compared Trumps handling of it as to that of Hoover

Remember, if Biden had been in charge in January, he would have allowed nearly 4 million Chinese to come to the US. And millions of Europeans... you know, so as not to appear racist or xenophobic.

I wonder how that would have worked out.....

Come on down to China town!

There's nothing to worry about here!!
https://www.kqed.org/news/11803203/pelosi-lunches-in-sf-chinatown-lending-support-to-businesses-amid-coronavirus-fears

From the Feb 24th article-

Pelosi addressed concerns about tourism and reassured the public that the risk of contracting the coronavirus remains low in the U.S., adding that she thinks the fear is "unwarranted in light of the precautions that are being taken here in the United States."

by dusty7 Tue Nov 10, 2020 6:57 pm

19delta wrote:
dusty7 wrote:
19delta wrote:
dusty7 wrote:
ramblinman wrote:
tps wrote:
Huck wrote:
I think that ultimately, the SCOTUS would decide whether or not the Compact is legal.

Maybe true, but I like its chances. I would love to hear the formal argument against it that would be presented to the court.

just an opinion -
popular votes will give all power to cities. i don't like that cause i'm just a dumb hick...i'm not smart like you city guys...

So, let me see if I understand you correctly. You prefer that electoral college continues to be weighted in favor of the dumb hicks. Does that about cover it?

You might be dumb, but you are smart enough to know a rigged system in your favor when you see one.

Don't the opinions and concerns for these dumb hicks matter just as much as those in the city? The Electoral College provides the smaller states a voice in the Presidential election, do their votes count more? Yes, and that was done by design by the Founding Fathers. They were smart enough to understand that majority rule will ultimately lead to mob rule. If the majority feels threatened than it is very easy for them to strip the rights away from the minority. We also must remember that the Constitution was written before the Bill of Rights so many were still fearful about the majority (larger states) taking away their rights which is why the Bill of Rights was added to create a Liberal Democracy so the rights of the minority are protected.

Somebody mentioned earlier that majority rule is the foundation of our country or something along the lines of that but our Founding Fathers were very fearful of creating a Democracy. They were all for "majority rule by those in power" meaning the legislatures but not "majority rule by the people."

Here is a good 10 minute video to explain the real American Form of Government - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DioQooFIcgE&playnext=1&list=PLCDC7237D6EF2464B&feature=results_main&ab_channel=notdemocracy

Majority rule is but one of many principles of American representative democracy. The others are ideas like checks and balances, separation of powers, popular sovereignty, limited government, federalism, etc, etc.

The Electoral College, for all it's faults, is an example of majority rule as well as checks and balances.

Majority rule is one of the basic principles of our gov't but not a majority rule by the people a majority rule by the leaders. The Electoral College was developed because the regular citizens would lack sufficient information to choose directly and intelligently among leading presidential candidates, obviously, the slave issue that Ramblin mentions changed the dynamic of the Electoral college.

It is also important that we remember that in order to vote before until the 1820's, you had to be a landowning male in order to even vote, so only the leaders/wealthy were the only ones able to vote, that is definitely not majority rule. It wasn't until 1856 that the landowning requirement was eliminated in every state.

Majority rule means the same thing today that it did in 1787.

Yep, Rich and out of touch with a majority of the population.

by Teetime Tue Nov 10, 2020 7:04 pm

Head Idiot wrote:
BirdWatcher wrote:Remember, if Biden had been in charge in January, he would have allowed nearly 4 million Chinese to come to the US. And millions of Europeans... you know, so as not to appear racist or xenophobic.

I wonder how that would have worked out.....
Come on down to China town!

There's nothing to worry about here!!
https://www.kqed.org/news/11803203/pelosi-lunches-in-sf-chinatown-lending-support-to-businesses-amid-coronavirus-fears

From the Feb 24th article-
Pelosi addressed concerns about tourism and reassured the public that the risk of contracting the coronavirus remains low in the U.S., adding that she thinks the fear is "unwarranted in light of the precautions that are being taken here in the United States."

All of this happened during the "lost month" that will forever be the Trump legacy. Nothing got done on the virus in February, nobody got tested, no PPE got distributed or acquired, travelers from Europe streamed in and infected the East Coast. The President wouldn't admit it was already out of control. He kept reassuring all of us that it would pass quickly and then just disappear.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/28/us/testing-coronavirus-pandemic.html

by lefty120 Tue Nov 10, 2020 7:55 pm

BirdWatcher wrote:
lefty120 wrote:This is interesting to me for the sole reason that since the pandemic started, I've compared Trumps handling of it as to that of Hoover

Remember, if Biden had been in charge in January, he would have allowed nearly 4 million Chinese to come to the US. And millions of Europeans... you know, so as not to appear racist or xenophobic.

I wonder how that would have worked out.....

I’m confused at the point you’re trying to make. My comparison has nothing to do with the actual intricacies of the two situations. My point was simply that both Presidents left more to the states than many could handle. That was all. You may be right about Biden...who knows. But history tells us that the comparison I made is accurate.

by Head Idiot Tue Nov 10, 2020 8:01 pm

dusty7 wrote:Yep, Rich and out of touch with a majority of the population.

The notion that either party gives two shits about the people and not just their personal wealth and power is hilarious.

by BirdWatcher Tue Nov 10, 2020 8:14 pm

Teetime wrote:Nothing got done on the virus in February

Warp Speed got started in February. Thank you President Trump.

by BirdWatcher Tue Nov 10, 2020 8:17 pm

lefty120 wrote:I’m confused...

You are.

lefty120 wrote:You may be right about Biden...

I am.

by Head Idiot Tue Nov 10, 2020 8:23 pm

It's time to unite the country. #Unity

AOC wrote: “Is anyone archiving these Trump sycophants for when they try to downplay or deny their complicity in the future?” she wrote. “I foresee decent probability of many deleted Tweets, writings, photos in the future.”

by lefty120 Tue Nov 10, 2020 8:35 pm

BirdWatcher wrote:
Teetime wrote:Nothing got done on the virus in February

Warp Speed got started in February. Thank you President Trump.

Pfizer took no money from Warp Speed. Thank you science.

by lefty120 Tue Nov 10, 2020 8:39 pm

BirdWatcher wrote:
lefty120 wrote:I’m confused...

You are.

lefty120 wrote:You may be right about Biden...

I am.

Thank you for clearing up for me what exactly your point was. I honestly would like to understand better, if it’s possible for you to do that.

by OSUBucks Tue Nov 10, 2020 8:48 pm

Well it sounds like the Conservative leaning SCOTUS is going to spare Obamacare. That's not going to help Trump's sour disposition any.

by tps Tue Nov 10, 2020 9:00 pm

lefty120 wrote:
BirdWatcher wrote:
Teetime wrote:Nothing got done on the virus in February

Warp Speed got started in February. Thank you President Trump.

Pfizer took no money from Warp Speed. Thank you science.

They took no money for r&d. They will receive $2 billion for 100 million doses. The deal was part of ows.

by Head Idiot Tue Nov 10, 2020 9:34 pm

lefty120 wrote:
BirdWatcher wrote:
Teetime wrote:Nothing got done on the virus in February

Warp Speed got started in February. Thank you President Trump.

Pfizer took no money from Warp Speed. Thank you science.

Thank you free market capitalism.

Wait, that's the devil.

by tps Tue Nov 10, 2020 10:01 pm

tps wrote:
lefty120 wrote:
BirdWatcher wrote:
Teetime wrote:Nothing got done on the virus in February

Warp Speed got started in February. Thank you President Trump.

Pfizer took no money from Warp Speed. Thank you science.

They took no money for r&d. They will receive $2 billion for 100 million doses. The deal was part of ows.

If biden is prez, us citizens might not get vaccines first.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-to-decide-who-should-get-a-covid-19-vaccine-first/

Zeke is rahms brother

by tps Tue Nov 10, 2020 10:08 pm

tps wrote:
tps wrote:
lefty120 wrote:
BirdWatcher wrote:
Teetime wrote:Nothing got done on the virus in February

Warp Speed got started in February. Thank you President Trump.

Pfizer took no money from Warp Speed. Thank you science.

They took no money for r&d. They will receive $2 billion for 100 million doses. The deal was part of ows.

If biden is prez, us citizens might not get vaccines first.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-to-decide-who-should-get-a-covid-19-vaccine-first/

Zeke is rahms brother

He also thinks life isn't worth living after 75.

https://www.technologyreview.com/2019/08/21/238642/a-doctor-and-medical-ethicist-argues-life-after-75-is-not-worth-living/

by OSUBucks Tue Nov 10, 2020 11:13 pm

tps wrote:
tps wrote:
tps wrote:
lefty120 wrote:
BirdWatcher wrote:
Teetime wrote:Nothing got done on the virus in February

Warp Speed got started in February. Thank you President Trump.

Pfizer took no money from Warp Speed. Thank you science.

They took no money for r&d. They will receive $2 billion for 100 million doses. The deal was part of ows.

If biden is prez, us citizens might not get vaccines first.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-to-decide-who-should-get-a-covid-19-vaccine-first/

Zeke is rahms brother

He also thinks life isn't worth living after 75.

https://www.technologyreview.com/2019/08/21/238642/a-doctor-and-medical-ethicist-argues-life-after-75-is-not-worth-living/

Folks in nursing homes and frontline medical personnel will be first. Folks 65 and older will be vaccinated before younger people. Also it's not IF Biden is President. He will be living in the White House January 20. All Trump is doing is tarnishing his legacy with his current behavior. I've got a clean conscience knowing that I never voted for that SOB.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/biden-taps-government-insiders-for-transition-aid-as-trump-balks/ar-BB1aSZbU

by tps Wed Nov 11, 2020 8:36 am

Huck wrote:
Of course its a problem. Everyone wants to win...

So it is about winning, not about getting it right. Okay.

I thought we were talking about picking a president?

We were. Point is, picking the president is not the end all, be all. Those in the minority may not get their way with the presidential selection, but that does not mean they aren't represented or under represented, as most arguments in favor of the EC imply.

i agree, the EC could use some updating. many of our voting systems need some updating (i.e. voter ID; signature verification; citizenship, residency & eligibility checks)

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