the whole "Izzo" incident

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Post by ging on Tue Mar 26, 2019 4:42 pm

i think i'm preaching to the choir here, but i do not understand the hoopla over how tom izzo got in the face of his player aaron henry last week during the ncaa tournament.  i was surprised at izzo's reaction to whatever henry did to piss him off.  it seemed a little out of character.  but i don't think he crossed any line, real or imagined, in his behavior.  and let's be honest here, izzo was NOT going after henry (physically) when he stood up from his chair and started towards henry.  he could have easily got to him prior to any of the other players "holding him back" (they weren't).  to me, this was nothing more than a psychological ploy by izzo to try to motivate henry.  msu was in the midst of a 10-0 run AND (this is key) he left henry in the game after the "incident".  if he was truly pissed at him, he would have benched him.

challenge: in your responses you can't use the term snowflake, liberal, democrats, the "left", or pussification.

full disclosure: i never could stand bobby knight as a person or a coach. but i have always liked izzo.
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Post by OSUBucks on Tue Mar 26, 2019 7:41 pm

I think you pretty much nailed it ging. There's not much that gets by Izzo when watching a basketball game. The kid wasn't giving his all out there and Izzo decided to light a fire under his ass. You have to develop mental toughness to play at MSU, Izzo will bring that out of you. I don't think MSU is any more talented than Michigan, Michigan may even be the more talented team but MSU won all the games between the two schools this year. I think there's just a mental toughness about MSU that allows them to win some games that they could just as easily lose. That comes from Izzo.
I noticed that some of his former players like Draymond Green are defending him. They've been through it and they respect Izzo. I'm an Izzo fan and he's been a hell of a coach for a long time. He loves his players but he's tough on them.
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Post by 19delta on Tue Mar 26, 2019 9:58 pm

I used to be a big Izzo fan. I always thought of him as one of those coaches who could get a whole lot out of very little. However, the way he responded to the Larry Nassar scandal really soured me on him. So, I guess I thought he was an a-hole before this recent incident! Very Happy
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Post by wolverine55 on Wed Mar 27, 2019 9:06 am

I think it was a major non-story turned into a story by the media. Although, I do wonder if his response or lackthereof to the Nassar situation has made Izzo a target. I saw another coach in the NCAA tournament--I don't remember who--have a similar situation with a player and it wasn't even mentioned by any media outlets.
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Post by Head Idiot on Wed Mar 27, 2019 9:07 am

wolverine55 wrote:I think it was a major non-story turned into a story by the media.  Although, I do wonder if his response or lackthereof to the Nassar situation has made Izzo a target.  I saw another coach in the NCAA tournament--I don't remember who--have a similar situation with a player and it wasn't even mentioned by any media outlets.
Bruce Pearl.

PS- will Illinois fans EVER let the Bruce Pearl thing go?
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Post by dusty7 on Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:05 am

As an IllinI fan, no we will never get over the Bruce Pearl thing. It prevented us from the opportunity to get Deon Thomas's best friend Juwaun Howard which would have benefitted the latter years of the Henson era greatly.

What was a surprise to me was the Kelvin Sampson is the HC of Houston. Wasn't he basically blacklisted by the NCAA due to violations at Oklahoma and Indiana?
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Post by Head Idiot on Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:34 am

dusty7 wrote:As an IllinI fan, no we will never get over the Bruce Pearl thing.  It prevented us from the opportunity to get Deon Thomas's best friend Juwaun Howard which would have benefitted the latter years of the Henson era greatly.  

What was a surprise to me was the Kelvin Sampson is the HC of Houston.  Wasn't he basically blacklisted by the NCAA due to violations at Oklahoma and Indiana?
So, you're mad that an alleged cheating didn't allow them to actually cheat to get Howard? Razz

And why did it prevent them from getting him?
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Post by ging on Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:45 am

wolverine55 wrote:I think it was a major non-story turned into a story by the media.  Although, I do wonder if his response or lackthereof to the Nassar situation has made Izzo a target.

good point.
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Post by OSUBucks on Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:46 am

Head Idiot wrote:
wolverine55 wrote:I think it was a major non-story turned into a story by the media.  Although, I do wonder if his response or lackthereof to the Nassar situation has made Izzo a target.  I saw another coach in the NCAA tournament--I don't remember who--have a similar situation with a player and it wasn't even mentioned by any media outlets.
Bruce Pearl.

PS- will Illinois fans EVER let the Bruce Pearl thing go?

They're still mad at Bill Self too.
As for the Larry Nasser situation Izzo said that he didn't know the guy, never spoke to him. There was a press conference though in which Izzo was asked questions about Larry Nasser and he handled them clumsily. The way he handled that press conference angered some folks.
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Post by dusty7 on Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:46 am

Yes I know how ridiculous it sounds!
I believe that once Deon's deal went down Howard was afraid of being caught up in the situation along with Illinois being on probation and no opportunity for the NCAAs.

As for Self, I don't fault him for leaving for a job like Kansas. Illinois would be a better program if he was still around but it is what it is. I place most of the blame on former AD Mike Thomas and the firing of Weber.
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Post by 19delta on Wed Mar 27, 2019 11:23 am

OSUBucks wrote:
Head Idiot wrote:
wolverine55 wrote:I think it was a major non-story turned into a story by the media.  Although, I do wonder if his response or lackthereof to the Nassar situation has made Izzo a target.  I saw another coach in the NCAA tournament--I don't remember who--have a similar situation with a player and it wasn't even mentioned by any media outlets.
Bruce Pearl.

PS- will Illinois fans EVER let the Bruce Pearl thing go?

They're still mad at Bill Self too.
As for the Larry Nasser situation Izzo said that he didn't know the guy, never spoke to him. There was a press conference though in which Izzo was asked questions about Larry Nasser and he handled them clumsily. The way he handled that press conference angered some folks.

He also vociferiously defended the MSU President who eventually had to resign in disgrace over her non-handling of the Nassar allegations. It was a really bad look for Izzo. My perception of him would be much better if he had simply said nothing about the Nassar scandal and just kept his head down.
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Post by Head Idiot on Wed Mar 27, 2019 11:44 am

19delta wrote:
OSUBucks wrote:
Head Idiot wrote:
wolverine55 wrote:I think it was a major non-story turned into a story by the media.  Although, I do wonder if his response or lackthereof to the Nassar situation has made Izzo a target.  I saw another coach in the NCAA tournament--I don't remember who--have a similar situation with a player and it wasn't even mentioned by any media outlets.
Bruce Pearl.

PS- will Illinois fans EVER let the Bruce Pearl thing go?

They're still mad at Bill Self too.
As for the Larry Nasser situation Izzo said that he didn't know the guy, never spoke to him. There was a press conference though in which Izzo was asked questions about Larry Nasser and he handled them clumsily. The way he handled that press conference angered some folks.

He also vociferiously defended the MSU President who eventually had to resign in disgrace over her non-handling of the Nassar allegations. It was a really bad look for Izzo. My perception of him would be much better if he had simply said nothing about the Nassar scandal and just kept his head down.
I don't know that he went out of his way to do any of it. I think he was probably asked those questions at a press conference and the press sure as hell won't let you not answer a question.
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Post by Ghengis Khan on Wed Mar 27, 2019 12:53 pm


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Post by Head Idiot on Wed Mar 27, 2019 1:25 pm

Ghengis Khan wrote:http://www.espn.com/espn/story/_/id/22214566/pattern-denial-inaction-information-suppression-michigan-state-goes-larry-nassar-case-espn

Long read, but this isn't a great look for Izzo or MSU athletic department.
It is not, but I would wager you could write a similar article about every athletic department at every college in America if you really wanted to. Not to dismiss the charges, but to act like Izzo, or MSU is one of the only places that does this kind of stuff is naive I think. That doesn't make it right, but I think it's a reality.
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Post by 19delta on Wed Mar 27, 2019 3:40 pm

Head Idiot wrote:
Ghengis Khan wrote:http://www.espn.com/espn/story/_/id/22214566/pattern-denial-inaction-information-suppression-michigan-state-goes-larry-nassar-case-espn

Long read, but this isn't a great look for Izzo or MSU athletic department.
It is not, but I would wager you could write a similar article about every athletic department at every college in America if you really wanted to.  Not to dismiss the charges, but to act like Izzo, or MSU is one of the only places that does this kind of stuff is naive I think.  That doesn't make it right, but I think it's a reality.

But that's not the point. This thread was specifically about Izzo, not "every college in America". HI...I do feel the need to point out that this is a bit of a pattern for you. Often, when some high-profile coach or athlete does something bad, you often slide into the "let's not pretend that lots of people at this level aren't dirtbags" line of reasoning. Which is true, of course. And I don't think you are excusing bad behavior (at least intentionally). However, I DO think that it does somewhat obfuscate the responsibility of the individual dirtbags. Like Izzo, in this case. I don't think it is particularly helpful to respond to bad behavior by a high profile coach or athlete by shrugging your shoulders and saying, "Well...whaddya gonna do? That's the job at that level." Instead, I think that those coaches need to be called out on their hypocrisy and sliminess.

Take Izzo. As a result of the incident in which he yelled at the player, Serious Sports Talkers and Opinion Havers have been tripping over each other for a chance to swing from Izzo's nutsack. He's a "builder of men"...he's "the guy I would want coaching my own son"...he's "a tough, old-school coach who has high standards and expects a great effort from his players". Well...he's also the guy who felt the need to defend his boss and others in the MSU administration. These are people who had allowed a serial sexual predator to operate with impunity for decades. Izzo, this "builder of men"...this "tough, old-school coach"...those are the people on whom Izzo chose to spend his personal capital. People who looked the other way while this monster victimized hundreds of little girls.

I don't need to watch a 20-second video of a 64-year-old man having a temper tantrum because some kid wasn't grinding enough to know that Tom Izzo is an unrepentent asshole. He has already made that argument succinctly.
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Post by Head Idiot on Wed Mar 27, 2019 4:51 pm

This thread had nothing to do with Larry Nasser. You, as our designated social warrior, took it that way. The thread was about the viralness of his coaching last weekend.

They're all assholes. Hell, we're all assholes. To continue to get outraged every time they do something you deem unacceptable or they don't say the right things when asked about an incident they weren't involved with is annoying and doing nothing other than puffing one's chest out to make yourself feel better or impress someone you think is watching. Newsflash- people suck. Some more than others. Everyone on Earth has done something that someone would consider despicable. He wasn't the one assaulting anyone. I don't give two craps what he thought of the Nasser deal. And he stuck up for a friend when asked about a situation he didn't have any knowledge of? I would think we'd all do that.
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Post by 19delta on Wed Mar 27, 2019 5:26 pm

Head Idiot wrote:This thread had nothing to do with Larry Nasser. You, as our designated social warrior, took it that way.  The thread was about the viralness of his coaching last weekend.

They're all assholes. Hell, we're all assholes. To continue to get outraged every time they do something you deem unacceptable or they don't say the right things when asked about an incident they weren't involved with is annoying and doing nothing other than puffing one's chest out to make yourself feel better or impress someone you think is watching. Newsflash- people suck. Some more than others. Everyone on Earth has done something that someone would consider despicable. He wasn't the one assaulting anyone. I don't give two craps what he thought of the Nasser deal. And he stuck up for a friend when asked about a situation he didn't have any knowledge of? I would think we'd all do that.

Did you read the ESPN article linked above?

The reason I brought up Izzo's role in the Nassar scandal was to provide some context. Much of the defense of Izzo's screaming at that kid had to do with the idea that Izzo is some kind of great motivator who really cares about kids and wants them to aspire to greatness for no other reason other than self-actualization. You are right. He didn't assault anyone. But what he did was to use his public podium to defend someone who looked the other way while horrible crimes were committed. Here's the question. Why say anything? Why did Tom Izzo feel the need to say ANYTHING at all? How about a "no comment"? How about a "I really don't know the details. I'm going to wait until the investigation is over before I say anything more specific." Literally anything would have been better than what he did. So that's why he is an asshole. Not because he yelled at some basketball player who wasn't hustling enough. If anything, knowing how he conducted himself during the Nassar investigation, throwing a rod through the block on national TV is probably completely within Tom Izzo's character.

A couple years ago, you (at least I think it was you) took issue with me because I said something along the lines that I respected John Calipari because he was, for the most part, brutally honest about how he approached college basketball. I stand by that contention. It's OK to just be a coach. It's OK to just want to win a lot of games. This idea that a big-time coach has to be a role model and a builder of men is just ridiculous. That's what I took issue with. The idea that Izzo's temper tantrum had some higher purpose in young Aaron Henry's development as a man. I don't think it did.

So, in summation, I think that Izzo's comments about the Nassar scandal say way more about who he really is then Izzo getting caught on national TV yelling at some kid for loafing.
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Post by Head Idiot on Wed Mar 27, 2019 5:38 pm

Have you, in your life, ever seen a press conference not continue to ask the same question over and over when someone gives that answer? Why do you think the press hates Belichick? Because he answers questions like that. You don't remember the shit storm he caused by answering the Deflategate questions pretty much exactly like that? Hell, I've had one reporter ask me the same question 5 times after a HS football game because I wouldn't give him the quote he wanted.

And I'm not sure you've noticed, but 90% of America would disagree with you about not needing to be a leader in what is expected out of today's coaches.

When has Calipari ever answered anything about the repeated cheating? His 30for30 sure seemed the opposite of being honest to me.
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Post by OSUBucks on Wed Mar 27, 2019 5:47 pm

Maybe Izzo wasn't aware that the President looked the other way. No one can prove otherwise. Maybe every interaction Izzo had with the MSU President was positive and he was just being loyal to a superior that had always treated him fairly. At worst, he spoke out without knowing all the facts. People do that from time to time and that doesn't make them assholes. I wouldn't characterize anyone who disagrees with Delta's summation of Izzo as someone who is just swinging on Izzo's nutsack either. Laughing
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Post by 19delta on Wed Mar 27, 2019 7:42 pm

Head Idiot wrote:Have you, in your life, ever seen a press conference not continue to ask the same question over and over when someone gives that answer? Why do you think the press hates Belichick? Because he answers questions like that. You don't remember the shit storm he caused by answering the Deflategate questions pretty much exactly like that? Hell, I've had one reporter ask me the same question 5 times after a HS football game because I wouldn't give him the quote he wanted.

And I'm not sure you've noticed, but 90% of America would disagree with you about not needing to be a leader in what is expected out of today's coaches.

When has Calipari ever answered anything about the repeated cheating? His 30for30 sure seemed the opposite of being honest to me.

Yes...I agree with you that most people have some notion that a coach needs to be a "leader" however that is defined. But the reality is, the coaches really aren't.

Also agree with you about Calipari. "Honesty" was a poor word choice. I guess my respect for him is in regards to how he recruits.
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Post by 19delta on Wed Mar 27, 2019 7:48 pm

OSUBucks wrote:Maybe Izzo wasn't aware that the President looked the other way. No one can prove otherwise.  Maybe every interaction Izzo had with the MSU President was positive and he was just being loyal to a superior that had always treated him fairly. At worst, he spoke out without knowing all the facts. People do that from time to time and that doesn't make them assholes.  I wouldn't characterize anyone who disagrees with Delta's summation of Izzo as someone who is just swinging on Izzo's nutsack either.  Laughing

Bucks...how could he NOT know? The Nasser thing had been public information for months if not years when Izzo made his comments.

And loyalty ends when it comes to defending someone who acted the way the MSU president did. Someone like Izzo, with his public audience, doesn't get to make stupid, ignorant, uniformed statements. His words carry too much weight and can do too much damage.

Look...I'm not saying he should have thrown her under the bus. But he should not have given her such an unequivocally supportive thumbs up. And a guy like him, who has been where he has been for so long, should have known better. A simple "No comment" would have sufficed.
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Post by OSUBucks on Wed Mar 27, 2019 8:22 pm

19delta wrote:
OSUBucks wrote:Maybe Izzo wasn't aware that the President looked the other way. No one can prove otherwise.  Maybe every interaction Izzo had with the MSU President was positive and he was just being loyal to a superior that had always treated him fairly. At worst, he spoke out without knowing all the facts. People do that from time to time and that doesn't make them assholes.  I wouldn't characterize anyone who disagrees with Delta's summation of Izzo as someone who is just swinging on Izzo's nutsack either.  Laughing

Bucks...how could he NOT know? The Nasser thing had been public information for months if not years when Izzo made his comments.

And loyalty ends when it comes to defending someone who acted the way the MSU president did. Someone like Izzo, with his public audience, doesn't get to make stupid, ignorant, uniformed statements. His words carry too much weight and can do too much damage.

Look...I'm not saying he should have thrown her under the bus. But he should not have given her such an unequivocally supportive thumbs up. And a guy like him, who has been where he has been for so long, should have known better. A simple "No comment" would have sufficed.

I agree that on an issue as awful as what happened at MSU with Nassar, you'd best not speak unless you know what you are talking about. I too wish he just would have said no comment but as HI said the media usually don't stop at one no comment, he would have had to say it many times and probably would have gotten hammered for that too.
Back to the issue at the basketball game I like SVP's take on it. I don't like ESPN in general but I like to listen to SVP's take on sports issues.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alNR70ep7sE&feature=youtu.be
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Post by tincup1215 on Wed Mar 27, 2019 8:40 pm

Why is the Gas Prices thread the only one that stays on topic
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Post by Head Idiot on Wed Mar 27, 2019 9:30 pm

tincup1215 wrote:Why is the Gas Prices thread the only one that stays on topic
PJ Fleck being a douche has stayed on topic. Razz
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Post by newcom on Thu Mar 28, 2019 9:41 am

[Yes...I agree with you that most people have some notion that a coach needs to be a "leader" however that is defined. But the reality is, the coaches really aren't.]
Delt I totally disagree, coaches should be leaders in every aspect of the word.  Many kids today do not have a "leader" in their family and coaches can be that person they need, for discipline, example, etc... As a coach I believe that the impact you have on kids influnces them greated than teachers, and at time there parents.
A Coach will impact more young people in a year than the average person does in a lifetime
Billy Graham.
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