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Post by general maximus on Fri Oct 09, 2020 10:08 am

Teetime wrote:I agree. So let's change the facts a bit.

Let's say they acted on the no-knock warrant and the first thing the police did was bust down the door. Let's say the boyfriend had a semi-automatic rifle and used it to kill all three or four police officers.

It can't be in this country that there are laws that allow a citizen to legally kill four police officers that were doing their jobs and following orders.

You can't have "stand your ground" laws and "no-knock" warrants in the same jurisdiction.  

I am reluctant to consider hypotheticals if evidence does not support the circumstances because it constructs a different perspective grounded in inaccuracies, but since we are both reasonable, I will assume the false premise for discussion. You will not like the result, but okay.

Stand your ground works because in EVERY instance (except one listed in the next paragraph), you must identify who you are shooting at. Period. The boyfriend did not and you want to give him a pass. However, you want the officers that were being shot at first by the BF to be guilty. You cannot have it both ways. What the cops did was wrong, but at least they were returning fire. STILL WRONG. What the BF did resulted in the cops shooting at him and killing BT.

The ones where criminals falsely claim "Castle Doctrine or Stand Your Ground to legitimize their illegal firing upon police after the fact"

You are bringing a knife to a gunfight.

There are false premises here and they just do not hold up. Whether they knocked or did not is immaterial because if you use "Stand Your Ground" you know that you must Identify the potential assailant. He did not. He is guilty of firing on police, who then returned fire. (It did kill BT and the officer should stand trial for that)

IF and only IF it was a drunk neighbor who had the wrong apartment, would it have been justified for the BF to shoot him the hallway without identifying him first?? NOPE.

Who the F fires at unknown people in hallways like the BF did...... Oh yeah, irresponsible gun owners. I am relieved that BF did not kill one of the officers because the next thing the Media would claim is that this is another death caused by guns and they would be calling for more gun control(read confiscation)


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Post by lefty120 on Fri Oct 09, 2020 10:21 am

I think the thing I keep coming back to here is the fact that the BF was the one who fired first, not knowing who he was shooting at...or did he know? Regardless, it's pretty well documented that he fired at police officers first; just think about that! I stand up for what's right as much as the next person, but I can't even begin to imagine a world where I'd do something like that. I have nothing but respect for our police officers, and yes, there's probably a few bad ones, just like there's a few bad teachers, lawyers, doctors, etc. She should not be dead, I'll agree with anyone about that; but man, as police officers who risk their lives every day, isn't their first priority to go home to their families every night? You're serving a drug warrant and someone starts shooting at you...I'm nowhere near a trained police officer, but you better believe I'm returning fire. Was their response warranted in the amount it was? I can't answer that. But this situation just wreaks of what's wrong with our politics and media in our country today.

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Post by BirdWatcher on Fri Oct 09, 2020 4:46 pm

lefty120 wrote:the BF was the one who fired first, not knowing who he was shooting at...or did he know? 

The previous narrative was that he was just an innocent guy. I'm an innocent guy. I stand my ground but don't shoot at people I can't see or identify.

Maybe the boyfriend wasn't as innocent as projected... maybe if you're from the drug culture, it's ok to shoot at people (other drug dealers) coming thru your door at midnight....

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Post by 19delta on Sat Oct 10, 2020 8:04 pm

BirdWatcher wrote:
lefty120 wrote:the BF was the one who fired first, not knowing who he was shooting at...or did he know? 

The previous narrative was that he was just an innocent guy.  I'm an innocent guy.  I stand my ground but don't shoot at people I can't see or identify.

Maybe the boyfriend wasn't as innocent as projected... maybe if you're from the drug culture, it's ok to shoot at people (other drug dealers) coming thru your door at midnight....

Or maybe crooked cops use deliveries from Amazon as a pretext to apply for warrants that old white judges are too lazy to read before they sign.

https://reason.com/2020/10/09/a-month-before-louisville-drug-warriors-killed-breonna-taylor-they-knew-the-suspicious-packages-she-supposedly-was-receiving-came-from-amazon/

This excerpt made me sick:

"Jaynes not only misrepresented those packages as evidence of Taylor's complicity. As Balko has noted, the detective offered no evidence specific to her that would justify a no-knock warrant. He simply cut-and-pasted boilerplate about the risk of violent resistance and/or evidence destruction in drug cases, which the Supreme Court has said is not enough to justify dispensing with the usual knock-and-announce rule."

R.I.P., Fourth Amendment.
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Post by OSUBucks on Sun Oct 11, 2020 10:55 am

nm
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Post by 19delta on Sun Oct 11, 2020 12:00 pm

general maximus wrote:
Head Idiot wrote:
In March, officers executed a “no knock” search warrant at Taylor’s apartment while she and her boyfriend, Kenneth Walker, were asleep. In Cameron’s account, Walker mistook police for intruders and fired his gun, officers returned fire amid the confusion, and Taylor was shot to death.  
What are they supposed to do when getting shot at?

...I have read a bunch of stuff on both sides that indicate that some say there was an announcement and knocking, but others say there was not.  The residents were supposedly asleep and may not have totally had a clear recollection of events due to their sleep.

My only point in this is that the "Stand Your Ground" or "Castle" defense is superseded by the knocking and/or announcement of law enforcement.  Maybe they did not knock, maybe they did.  I only know what I read and body cams would have that.  Just because someone says they did not hear anyone knock does not mean the police didn't.

How convenient for the police.
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Post by Teetime on Sun Oct 11, 2020 4:03 pm

general maximus wrote:
Teetime wrote:I agree. So let's change the facts a bit.

Let's say they acted on the no-knock warrant and the first thing the police did was bust down the door. Let's say the boyfriend had a semi-automatic rifle and used it to kill all three or four police officers.

It can't be in this country that there are laws that allow a citizen to legally kill four police officers that were doing their jobs and following orders.

You can't have "stand your ground" laws and "no-knock" warrants in the same jurisdiction.  

I am reluctant to consider hypotheticals if evidence does not support the circumstances because it constructs a different perspective grounded in inaccuracies, but since we are both reasonable, I will assume the false premise for discussion.  You will not like the result, but okay.

Stand your ground works because in EVERY instance (except one listed in the next paragraph), you must identify who you are shooting at.  Period.  The boyfriend did not and you want to give him a pass.  However, you want the officers that were being shot at first by the BF to be guilty.  You cannot have it both ways.  What the cops did was wrong, but at least they were returning fire. STILL WRONG.   What the BF did resulted in the cops shooting at him and killing BT.

The ones where criminals falsely claim "Castle Doctrine or Stand Your Ground to legitimize their illegal firing upon police after the fact"  

You are bringing a knife to a gunfight.  

There are false premises here and they just do not hold up.  Whether they knocked or did not is immaterial because if you use "Stand Your Ground" you know that you must Identify the potential assailant.  He did not.  He is guilty of firing on police, who then returned fire. (It did kill BT and the officer should stand trial for that)

IF and only IF it was a drunk neighbor who had the wrong apartment, would it have been justified for the BF to shoot him the hallway without identifying him first??  NOPE.  

Who the F fires at unknown people in hallways like the BF did...... Oh yeah, irresponsible gun owners.  I am relieved that BF did not kill one of the officers because the next thing the Media would claim is that this is another death caused by guns and they would be calling for more gun control(read confiscation)


I think that is a great answer.

While I do own a gun, I haven't used it in 25 years and would be frightened to use it today. I only mention that because I'm so ignorant of the obvious requirement that you identify the intruder. That said, I had no idea that one of the elements of "stand you ground" laws was that you had to identify the intruder into you home. It makes perfect sense that identification is a requirement in the law.

As a practical matter however, if I have a gun for protection and I know how to use it and someone knocks down my front door in the middle of the night and comes into my home...how often am I going to take the time to identify that person before I start shooting? Here I'm not asking about the Taylor case...I mean I'm you are in your home in Peoria, Illinois sleeping with your wife and you are awakened to the door being bashed in. People are yelling, you ask for an ID or pull the trigger of your gun?


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Post by BirdWatcher on Sun Oct 11, 2020 5:01 pm

Teetime wrote:you ask for an ID or pull the trigger of your gun?

You put that red laser dot right on their chest from a point of concealment and ask who they are.... the "red dot lie detector" works wonders.

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Post by 19delta on Mon Oct 12, 2020 5:58 am

If you claim to be a 2nd Amendment supporter but you are blaming Taylor for her own death and making excuses for what these cops did, then shame on you.

https://reason.com/2020/10/09/the-police-tactics-that-caused-breonna-taylors-death-should-infuriate-second-amendment-advocates/
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Post by Teetime on Mon Oct 12, 2020 6:47 am

BirdWatcher wrote:
Teetime wrote:you ask for an ID or pull the trigger of your gun?

You put that red laser dot right on their chest from a point of concealment and ask who they are....  the "red dot lie detector" works wonders.


My gun doesn’t have any lights, bells or whistles.

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Post by Teetime on Mon Oct 12, 2020 4:04 pm

BirdWatcher wrote:
Teetime wrote:you ask for an ID or pull the trigger of your gun?

You put that red laser dot right on their chest from a point of concealment and ask who they are....  the "red dot lie detector" works wonders.


It sounds like you have been on one end or the other of that lie detector...care to share? I'm guessing a jealous husband.

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Post by ramblinman on Mon Oct 12, 2020 5:36 pm

Teetime wrote:
general maximus wrote:
Teetime wrote:I agree. So let's change the facts a bit.

Let's say they acted on the no-knock warrant and the first thing the police did was bust down the door. Let's say the boyfriend had a semi-automatic rifle and used it to kill all three or four police officers.

It can't be in this country that there are laws that allow a citizen to legally kill four police officers that were doing their jobs and following orders.

You can't have "stand your ground" laws and "no-knock" warrants in the same jurisdiction.  

I am reluctant to consider hypotheticals if evidence does not support the circumstances because it constructs a different perspective grounded in inaccuracies, but since we are both reasonable, I will assume the false premise for discussion.  You will not like the result, but okay.

Stand your ground works because in EVERY instance (except one listed in the next paragraph), you must identify who you are shooting at.  Period.  The boyfriend did not and you want to give him a pass.  However, you want the officers that were being shot at first by the BF to be guilty.  You cannot have it both ways.  What the cops did was wrong, but at least they were returning fire. STILL WRONG.   What the BF did resulted in the cops shooting at him and killing BT.

The ones where criminals falsely claim "Castle Doctrine or Stand Your Ground to legitimize their illegal firing upon police after the fact"  

You are bringing a knife to a gunfight.  

There are false premises here and they just do not hold up.  Whether they knocked or did not is immaterial because if you use "Stand Your Ground" you know that you must Identify the potential assailant.  He did not.  He is guilty of firing on police, who then returned fire. (It did kill BT and the officer should stand trial for that)

IF and only IF it was a drunk neighbor who had the wrong apartment, would it have been justified for the BF to shoot him the hallway without identifying him first??  NOPE.  

Who the F fires at unknown people in hallways like the BF did...... Oh yeah, irresponsible gun owners.  I am relieved that BF did not kill one of the officers because the next thing the Media would claim is that this is another death caused by guns and they would be calling for more gun control(read confiscation)


I think that is a great answer.

While I do own a gun, I haven't used it in 25 years and would be frightened to use it today. I only mention that because I'm so ignorant of the obvious requirement that you identify the intruder. That said, I had no idea that one of the elements of "stand you ground" laws was that you had to identify the intruder into you home. It makes perfect sense that identification is a requirement in the law.

As a practical matter however, if I have a gun for protection and I know how to use it and someone knocks down my front door in the middle of the night and comes into my home...how often am I going to take the time to identify that person before I start shooting? Here I'm not asking about the Taylor case...I mean I'm you are in your home in Peoria, Illinois sleeping with your wife and you are awakened to the door being bashed in. People are yelling, you ask for an ID or pull the trigger of your gun?


What if you are sleeping with someone else's wife?
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Post by Teetime on Mon Oct 12, 2020 11:00 pm

ramblinman wrote:

What if you are sleeping with someone else's wife?

I should have mentioned that possibility. I suppose there would be a much greater chance that the jealous husband is knocking down the door and I would definitely not want to kill that guy. His wife would want me to marry her and I would never want a wife that cheats on her husband.

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