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Post by BirdWatcher on Wed Jun 03, 2020 9:51 pm

At least five black people have been killed by rioters in the past week. That's more than half the number of unarmed black people killed by police all of last year. Now tell me how this has all been worth it.

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Post by Head Idiot on Thu Jun 04, 2020 12:24 am

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Post by Teetime on Thu Jun 04, 2020 5:28 am

Head Idiot wrote:You mean two of the whitest countries in the world? 88 and 90% caucasian respectively.

Are you saying that if there are more black and brown people then it follows that there will be more racism? That the larger percentage of people of color the larger percentage of racists? If a country were 50% white and 50% black then it would be 100% racist?

Is your argument that we shouldn’t try to change racist behavior because it’s in our nature? Can the same be said for sexism?


\"Head Idiot” wrote: Question for you- do you believe there is such a thing as reverse racism?

Define that.

Here is the definition of racism:
“prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior.”

I’m assuming you are asking if there are examples of people being treated BETTER as opposed to worse based on the belief that one’s own race is superior? If that’s what you mean then yes...I’m sure that happens. Not often, but I’m sure it happens.

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Post by Head Idiot on Thu Jun 04, 2020 11:12 am

No, do you think black people can be racist toward whites?
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Post by lefty120 on Thu Jun 04, 2020 12:20 pm

I think it will be interesting to hear what went on before he was cuffed and restrained and the cameras started rolling. I’m not excusing by any means what happened to him...but most media and regular citizens see these videos and are like ’😳😳😳’ Holy shit that’s wrong...but never take into account what these officers deal with on a daily basis from people of all races. Maybe what happened before has been made public and I missed it, but I haven’t seen it.

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Post by 19delta on Thu Jun 04, 2020 12:27 pm

lefty120 wrote:I think it will be interesting to hear what went on before he was cuffed and restrained and the cameras started rolling. I’m not excusing by any means what happened to him...but most media and regular citizens see these videos and are like ’😳😳😳’ Holy shit that’s wrong...but never take into account what these officers deal with on a daily basis from people of all races.  Maybe what happened before has been made public and I missed it, but I haven’t seen it.

But that is the foundation of the problem! If more time was spent on training police officers in conflict resolution and de-escalation skills, many of these scenarios would not end so tragically. Compared to many industrialized nations, American police receive very little training in these skills. So the result is that if the only tool you have is a hammer, everything ends up looking like a nail.
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Post by Head Idiot on Thu Jun 04, 2020 1:24 pm

19delta wrote:
lefty120 wrote:I think it will be interesting to hear what went on before he was cuffed and restrained and the cameras started rolling. I’m not excusing by any means what happened to him...but most media and regular citizens see these videos and are like ’😳😳😳’ Holy shit that’s wrong...but never take into account what these officers deal with on a daily basis from people of all races.  Maybe what happened before has been made public and I missed it, but I haven’t seen it.

But that is the foundation of the problem! If more time was spent on training police officers in conflict resolution and de-escalation skills, many of these scenarios would not end so tragically. Compared to many industrialized nations, American police receive very little training in these skills. So the result is that if the only tool you have is a hammer, everything ends up looking like a nail.
I think the counter to that argument would be education. They said the same about teachers and then astronomically raised the things you have to do to teach. That, combined with the clientele has made it near impossible to get young people into teaching. The same would probably happen to cops. Hell, I don't know numbers, but with the way they're vilified the past 20ish years I would imagine it's pretty hard now.

Plus, let's face it, the Japanese were right. Americans as a whole are lazy as hell.
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Post by Teetime on Thu Jun 04, 2020 1:30 pm

Head Idiot wrote:No, do you think black people can be racist toward whites?


Of course. I mentioned that in my post at 5:08pm on Wednesday

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Post by Head Idiot on Thu Jun 04, 2020 1:45 pm

Teetime wrote:
Head Idiot wrote:No, do you think black people can be racist toward whites?


Of course. I mentioned that in my post at 5:08pm on Wednesday
Many of your political brethren don't. I was just wondering.
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Post by lefty120 on Thu Jun 04, 2020 1:49 pm

19delta wrote:
lefty120 wrote:I think it will be interesting to hear what went on before he was cuffed and restrained and the cameras started rolling. I’m not excusing by any means what happened to him...but most media and regular citizens see these videos and are like ’😳😳😳’ Holy shit that’s wrong...but never take into account what these officers deal with on a daily basis from people of all races.  Maybe what happened before has been made public and I missed it, but I haven’t seen it.

But that is the foundation of the problem! If more time was spent on training police officers in conflict resolution and de-escalation skills, many of these scenarios would not end so tragically. Compared to many industrialized nations, American police receive very little training in these skills. So the result is that if the only tool you have is a hammer, everything ends up looking like a nail.

Totally agree Delt...but I also agree with HI...the amount of crap teachers have to do now so the public thinks they’re ‘doing their jobs better’ is a joke and has greatly hurt the number of available candidates. I fear it would be similar for police officers. My son is preparing to major in criminal justice at Greenville, and the requirements to enter the state police academy are shockingly low. According to a friend in our commmity who is a state police investigator, they can’t find quality candidates and that’s why they’ve lessened the requirements. I agree additional training could help arm police officers with other techniques in their tool belt to solve conflict, but will they get the necessary number of quality candidates to fill those jobs?

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Post by 19delta on Thu Jun 04, 2020 1:55 pm

Head Idiot wrote:
19delta wrote:
lefty120 wrote:I think it will be interesting to hear what went on before he was cuffed and restrained and the cameras started rolling. I’m not excusing by any means what happened to him...but most media and regular citizens see these videos and are like ’😳😳😳’ Holy shit that’s wrong...but never take into account what these officers deal with on a daily basis from people of all races.  Maybe what happened before has been made public and I missed it, but I haven’t seen it.

But that is the foundation of the problem! If more time was spent on training police officers in conflict resolution and de-escalation skills, many of these scenarios would not end so tragically. Compared to many industrialized nations, American police receive very little training in these skills. So the result is that if the only tool you have is a hammer, everything ends up looking like a nail.
I think the counter to that argument would be education. They said the same about teachers and then astronomically raised the things you have to do to teach. That, combined with the clientele has made it near impossible to get young people into teaching. The same would probably happen to cops. Hell, I don't know numbers, but with the way they're vilified the past 20ish years I would imagine it's pretty hard now.

Plus, let's face it, the Japanese were right. Americans as a whole are lazy as hell.

But I'm not talking about giving cops more to do. They are going to do the same job but have more options available in carrying out their duties.

And, quite frankly, if law enforcement training began emphasizing a kinder and gentler approach (or even a less lethal approach) that could have the positive effect of dissuading and weeding out the Neanderthals who become cops because the uniform, badge, and gun give them the legal cover to be brutes.
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Post by OSUBucks on Thu Jun 04, 2020 1:55 pm

Minnesota AG Keith Ellison today said that it's not easy to get convictions against police officers and that prosecuting the four officers will not be an easy thing. That's pretty much what Delta and others have already suggested on this thread.
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Post by 19delta on Thu Jun 04, 2020 2:02 pm

...and if the reason there is a shortage of cops is because the profession is viewed unfavorably, then the cops have only themselves to blame for it.

https://reason.com/2019/06/25/u-s-cops-are-facing-a-recruitment-crisis-will-it-force-them-to-change-their-ways/


Last edited by 19delta on Thu Jun 04, 2020 2:03 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by lefty120 on Thu Jun 04, 2020 2:03 pm

19delta wrote:
Head Idiot wrote:
19delta wrote:
lefty120 wrote:I think it will be interesting to hear what went on before he was cuffed and restrained and the cameras started rolling. I’m not excusing by any means what happened to him...but most media and regular citizens see these videos and are like ’😳😳😳’ Holy shit that’s wrong...but never take into account what these officers deal with on a daily basis from people of all races.  Maybe what happened before has been made public and I missed it, but I haven’t seen it.

But that is the foundation of the problem! If more time was spent on training police officers in conflict resolution and de-escalation skills, many of these scenarios would not end so tragically. Compared to many industrialized nations, American police receive very little training in these skills. So the result is that if the only tool you have is a hammer, everything ends up looking like a nail.
I think the counter to that argument would be education. They said the same about teachers and then astronomically raised the things you have to do to teach. That, combined with the clientele has made it near impossible to get young people into teaching. The same would probably happen to cops. Hell, I don't know numbers, but with the way they're vilified the past 20ish years I would imagine it's pretty hard now.

Plus, let's face it, the Japanese were right. Americans as a whole are lazy as hell.

But I'm not talking about giving cops more to do. They are going to do the same job but have more options available in carrying out their duties.

And, quite frankly, if law enforcement training began emphasizing a kinder and gentler approach (or even a less lethal approach) that could have the positive effect of dissuading and weeding out the Neanderthals who become cops because the uniform, badge, and gun give them the legal cover to be brutes.

No argument here and a good point! I was simply referencing the increased time it would take to become an officer would perhaps deter some candidates. Right now, it’s not very much at all. But I agree, to include the type of training you reference would probably not make it much more difficult and could potentially have a huge impact. Problem is, getting it implemented.

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Post by Head Idiot on Thu Jun 04, 2020 2:09 pm

19delta wrote:
Head Idiot wrote:
19delta wrote:
lefty120 wrote:I think it will be interesting to hear what went on before he was cuffed and restrained and the cameras started rolling. I’m not excusing by any means what happened to him...but most media and regular citizens see these videos and are like ’😳😳😳’ Holy shit that’s wrong...but never take into account what these officers deal with on a daily basis from people of all races.  Maybe what happened before has been made public and I missed it, but I haven’t seen it.

But that is the foundation of the problem! If more time was spent on training police officers in conflict resolution and de-escalation skills, many of these scenarios would not end so tragically. Compared to many industrialized nations, American police receive very little training in these skills. So the result is that if the only tool you have is a hammer, everything ends up looking like a nail.
I think the counter to that argument would be education. They said the same about teachers and then astronomically raised the things you have to do to teach. That, combined with the clientele has made it near impossible to get young people into teaching. The same would probably happen to cops. Hell, I don't know numbers, but with the way they're vilified the past 20ish years I would imagine it's pretty hard now.

Plus, let's face it, the Japanese were right. Americans as a whole are lazy as hell.

But I'm not talking about giving cops more to do. They are going to do the same job but have more options available in carrying out their duties.

And, quite frankly, if law enforcement training began emphasizing a kinder and gentler approach (or even a less lethal approach) that could have the positive effect of dissuading and weeding out the Neanderthals who become cops because the uniform, badge, and gun give them the legal cover to be brutes.
"Training"?

Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing

All that online training and workshops you've been forced to sit through has fundamentally changed you I'm sure.
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Post by 19delta on Thu Jun 04, 2020 2:19 pm

Head Idiot wrote:
19delta wrote:
Head Idiot wrote:
19delta wrote:
lefty120 wrote:I think it will be interesting to hear what went on before he was cuffed and restrained and the cameras started rolling. I’m not excusing by any means what happened to him...but most media and regular citizens see these videos and are like ’😳😳😳’ Holy shit that’s wrong...but never take into account what these officers deal with on a daily basis from people of all races.  Maybe what happened before has been made public and I missed it, but I haven’t seen it.

But that is the foundation of the problem! If more time was spent on training police officers in conflict resolution and de-escalation skills, many of these scenarios would not end so tragically. Compared to many industrialized nations, American police receive very little training in these skills. So the result is that if the only tool you have is a hammer, everything ends up looking like a nail.
I think the counter to that argument would be education. They said the same about teachers and then astronomically raised the things you have to do to teach. That, combined with the clientele has made it near impossible to get young people into teaching. The same would probably happen to cops. Hell, I don't know numbers, but with the way they're vilified the past 20ish years I would imagine it's pretty hard now.

Plus, let's face it, the Japanese were right. Americans as a whole are lazy as hell.

But I'm not talking about giving cops more to do. They are going to do the same job but have more options available in carrying out their duties.

And, quite frankly, if law enforcement training began emphasizing a kinder and gentler approach (or even a less lethal approach) that could have the positive effect of dissuading and weeding out the Neanderthals who become cops because the uniform, badge, and gun give them the legal cover to be brutes.
"Training"?

Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing

All that online training and workshops you've been forced to sit through has fundamentally changed you I'm sure.

Eh...some has, most hasn't.

But you identified the basic problem. Bringing cops into the squad room and showing them a Google slidehow or 30 minute video isn't going to make a difference. The way police officers are selected and trained has to fundamentally change. Clearly, the way we are doing it now isn't working.

We are really good at teaching cops how to be warriors. Let's start teaching them to be poets, too
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Post by Head Idiot on Thu Jun 04, 2020 2:23 pm

Then what will do it? What kind of training are you talking about?
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Post by 19delta on Thu Jun 04, 2020 2:31 pm

Head Idiot wrote:Then what will do it?  What kind of training are you talking about?

Well, I'm not a cop. I just complain about them on the Internet.

I think that something that would be beneficial would be to consider why American cops use lethal force far more often than cops in other industrialized countries, including some countries with higher crime rates than the US.

Something else to consider is the length of training. For example, in the US, it takes, on average, about 5 months for a trainee to become an officer. In Germany, it takes something like 4 years.

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Post by Teetime on Thu Jun 04, 2020 3:21 pm

Head Idiot wrote:
Teetime wrote:
Head Idiot wrote:No, do you think black people can be racist toward whites?


Of course. I mentioned that in my post at 5:08pm on Wednesday
Many of your political brethren don't. I was just wondering.


By the way, what you described isn't "reverse racism". It's just plain racism.


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Post by Head Idiot on Thu Jun 04, 2020 3:45 pm

Teetime wrote:
Head Idiot wrote:
Teetime wrote:
Head Idiot wrote:No, do you think black people can be racist toward whites?


Of course. I mentioned that in my post at 5:08pm on Wednesday
Many of your political brethren don't. I was just wondering.


By the way, what you described isn't "reverse racism". It's just plain racism.

Reverse racism- prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism on the basis of race directed against a member of a dominant or privileged racial group.
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Post by dusty7 on Thu Jun 04, 2020 7:01 pm

Not intending to hijack a thread but I really think kneeling during the Star Spangled Banner is going to be an issue, not only for professional sports, but also for high school sports. I know the some poeple and communities frown upon kneeling and may say derogatory things towards those kneeling which will create some inevitable controversy.

Should schools think about saying an announcement before the banner to respect each other's opinion/protest, or should we cease playing it before athletic events entirely?

I know probably not going to be a popular question but something where I can see teams walking off the field/court, and become a public relations nightmare when fans cannot keep their mouths shut.
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Post by 19delta on Thu Jun 04, 2020 7:37 pm

dusty7 wrote:Not intending to hijack a thread but I really think kneeling during the Star Spangled Banner is going to be an issue, not only for professional sports, but also for high school sports.  I know the some poeple and communities frown upon kneeling and may say derogatory things towards those kneeling which will create some inevitable controversy.  

Should schools think about saying an announcement before the banner to respect each other's opinion/protest, or should we cease playing it before athletic events entirely?

I know probably not going to be a popular question but something where I can see teams walking off the field/court, and become a public relations nightmare when fans cannot keep their mouths shut.  

Good observation, dusty. I can tell you that anthem-singing will die hard and kicking and screaming throughout most of NW Illinois.
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Post by Head Idiot on Thu Jun 04, 2020 7:42 pm

dusty7 wrote:Not intending to hijack a thread but I really think kneeling during the Star Spangled Banner is going to be an issue, not only for professional sports, but also for high school sports.  I know the some poeple and communities frown upon kneeling and may say derogatory things towards those kneeling which will create some inevitable controversy.  

Should schools think about saying an announcement before the banner to respect each other's opinion/protest, or should we cease playing it before athletic events entirely?

I know probably not going to be a popular question but something where I can see teams walking off the field/court, and become a public relations nightmare when fans cannot keep their mouths shut.  
I think I said this during a Kaepernick thread, but we just never came out for the anthem.
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Post by wolverine55 on Thu Jun 04, 2020 7:43 pm

I would be okay with no national anthem before games but I felt that way before this week.
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