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Post by BirdWatcher on Fri Feb 08, 2019 12:20 am

Pike Bishop wrote:Where will all the power for the re-charging stations come from?

From coal-fired plants... like now.... Wink

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Post by Head Idiot on Fri Feb 08, 2019 9:54 am

BirdWatcher wrote:
Pike Bishop wrote:Where will all the power for the re-charging stations come from?

From coal-fired plants... like now....  Wink
I asked someone who was freaking out about how good this plan is on Twitter that same question. His response was from wind farms and solar fields? I asked how long he expected it to take to build all of that and how many MILLIONS of acres of land will be consumed by it since we can't deal with energy demands today with coal and wind and solar.

I have not gotten a response.
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Post by BirdWatcher on Fri Feb 08, 2019 3:10 pm

Head Idiot wrote:I asked someone who was freaking out about how good this plan is on Twitter that same question.  His response was from wind farms and solar fields?  I asked how long he expected it to take to build all of that and how many MILLIONS of acres of land will be consumed by it since we can't deal with energy demands today with coal and wind and solar.  

The "solution" to global warming is available now. Proven technology. France gets 90% of it's electricity from it.

Won't happen, cuz "nuclear" is a four-letter word.

The latest UN estimate says climate change will kill a MILLION people a year... 80 years from now.
2-3 million people die every year... now, not in 80 years.... due to lack of access to clean water and sanitation. We know how to fix dirty water and sanitation. It's estimated to cost 200 billion to do so. But we don't.

Mmmmmmm.

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Post by Head Idiot on Fri Feb 08, 2019 3:12 pm

BirdWatcher wrote:
Head Idiot wrote:I asked someone who was freaking out about how good this plan is on Twitter that same question.  His response was from wind farms and solar fields?  I asked how long he expected it to take to build all of that and how many MILLIONS of acres of land will be consumed by it since we can't deal with energy demands today with coal and wind and solar.  

The "solution" to global warming is available now.  Proven technology.  France gets 90% of it's electricity from it.  

Won't happen, cuz "nuclear" is a four-letter word.

The latest UN estimate says climate change will kill a MILLION people a year... 80 years from now.
2-3 million people die every year... now, not in 80 years.... due to lack of access to clean water and sanitation.  We know how to fix dirty water and sanitation.  It's estimated to cost 200 billion to do so.  But we don't.

Mmmmmmm.
In fact, one of the Green New Deal's focuses is to shutter all nuclear plants in 10 years.

But, remember, it's not a money grab for their Green energy partners.
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Post by Head Idiot on Fri Feb 08, 2019 3:36 pm

From AOC's actual document (the website I linked wasn't her proposal, but was obviously a source document- I have AOC's saved on my phone)-

Question- Is nuclear a part of this?

Answer- A Green New Deal is a massive investment in renewable energy production and would not include creating new nuclear plants. It's unclear if we will be able to decommission every nuclear plant in 10 years, but the plan is to transition off of nuclear and all fossil fuels as soon as possible. No one has put the full 10-year plan together yet, and if it is possible to get to fully 100% renewable in 10 years, we will do that.
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Post by Head Idiot on Fri Feb 08, 2019 5:47 pm

Page 1 of the AOC document-
AOC wrote: LAUNCH: Thursday, February 7, at 8:30 AM.
Overview
 We will begin work immediately on Green New Deal bills to put the
nuts and bolts on the plan described in this resolution (important to
say so someone else can’t claim this mantle).
 This is a massive transformation of our society with clear goals and
a timeline.
o The Green New Deal resolution a 10-year plan to mobilize every aspect
of American society at a scale not seen since World War 2 to achieve
net-zero greenhouse gas emissions and create economic prosperity for
all. It will:
 Move America to 100% clean and renewable energy
 Create millions of family supporting-wage, union jobs
 Ensure a just transition for all communities and workers to
ensure economic security for people and communities that have
historically relied on fossil fuel industries
 Ensure justice and equity for frontline communities by
prioritizing investment, training, climate and community
resiliency, economic and environmental benefits in these
communities.
 Build on FDR’s second bill of rights by guaranteeing:
 A job with a family-sustaining wage, family and medical
leave, vacations, and retirement security
 High-quality education, including higher education and
trade schools
 Clean air and water and access to nature
 Healthy food
 High-quality health care
 Safe, affordable, adequate housing
 Economic environment free of monopolies
 Economic security for all who are unable or unwilling to
work
 There is no time to waste.
o IPCC Report said global emissions must be cut by by 40-60% by 2030.
US is 20% of total emissions. We must get to 0 by 2030 and lead the
world in a global Green New Deal.
 Americans love a challenge. This is our moonshot.
o When JFK said we’d go to the by the end of the decade, people said
impossible.
o If Eisenhower wanted to build the interstate highway system today,
people would ask how we’d pay for it.
o When FDR called on America to build 185,000 planes to fight World
War 2, every business leader, CEO, and general laughed at him. At the
time, the U.S. had produced 3,000 planes in the last year. By the end
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Post by Head Idiot on Fri Feb 08, 2019 5:49 pm

Page 2
AOC wrote: of the war, we produced 300,000 planes. That’s what we are capable of
if we have real leadership
 This is massive investment in our economy and society, not
expenditure.
o We invested 40-50% of GDP into our economy during World War 2 and
created the greatest middle class the US has seen.
o The interstate highway system has returned more than $6 in economic
productivity for every $1 it cost
o This is massively expanding existing and building new industries at a
rapid pace – growing our economy
 The Green New Deal has momentum.
o 92 percent of Democrats and 64 percent of Republicans support the
Green New Deal
o Nearly every major Democratic Presidential contender say they back
the Green New deal including: Elizabeth Warren, Cory Booker, Kamala
Harris, Jeff Merkeley, Julian Castro, Kirsten Gillibrand, Bernie Sanders,
Tulsi Gabbard, and Jay Inslee.
o 45 House Reps and 330+ groups backed the original resolution for a
select committee
o Over 300 local and state politicians have called for a federal Green
New Deal
o New Resolution has 20 co-sponsors, about 30 groups (numbers will
change by Thursday).
FAQ
Why 100% clean and renewable and not just 100% renewable? Are you
saying we won’t transition off fossil fuels?
Yes, we are calling for a full transition off fossil fuels and zero greenhouse gases.
Anyone who has read the resolution sees that we spell this out through a plan that
calls for eliminating greenhouse gas emissions from every sector of the economy.
Simply banning fossil fuels immediately won’t build the new economy to replace it –
this is the plan to build that new economy and spells out how to do it technically. We
do this through a huge mobilization to create the renewable energy economy as fast
as possible. We set a goal to get to net-zero, rather than zero emissions, in 10 years
because we aren’t sure that we’ll be able to fully get rid of farting cows and
airplanes that fast, but we think we can ramp up renewable manufacturing and
power production, retrofit every building in America, build the smart grid, overhaul
transportation and agriculture, plant lots of trees and restore our ecosystem to get
to net-zero.
Is nuclear a part of this?
A Green New Deal is a massive investment in renewable energy production and
would not include creating new nuclear plants. It’s unclear if we will be able to
decommission every nuclear plant within 10 years, but the plan is to transition off of
nuclear and all fossil fuels as soon as possible. No one has put the full 10-year plan
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Post by Head Idiot on Fri Feb 08, 2019 5:51 pm

Page 3
AOC wrote: together yet, and if it is possible to get to fully 100% renewable in 10 years, we will
do that.
Does this include a carbon tax?
The Green New Deal is a massive investment in the production of renewable energy
industries and infrastructure. We cannot simply tax gas and expect workers to figure
out another way to get to work unless we’ve first created a better, more affordable
option. So we’re not ruling a carbon tax out, but a carbon tax would be a tiny part of
a Green New Deal in the face of the gigantic expansion of our productive economy
and would have to be preceded by first creating the solutions necessary so that
workers and working class communities are not affected. While a carbon tax may be
a part of the Green New Deal, it misses the point and would be off the table unless
we create the clean, affordable options first.
Does this include cap and trade?
The Green New Deal is about creating the renewable energy economy through a
massive investment in our society and economy. Cap and trade assumes the
existing market will solve this problem for us, and that’s simply not true. While cap
and trade may be a tiny part of the larger Green New Deal plan to mobilize our
economy, any cap and trade legislation will pale in comparison to the size of the
mobilization and must recognize that existing legislation can incentivize companies
to create toxic hotspots in frontline communities, so anything here must ensure that
frontline communities are prioritized.
Does a GND ban all new fossil fuel infrastructure or nuclear power plants?
The Green New Deal makes new fossil fuel infrastructure or nuclear plants
unnecessary. This is a massive mobilization of all our resources into renewable
energies. It would simply not make sense to build new fossil fuel infrastructure
because we will be creating a plan to reorient our entire economy to work off
renewable energy. Simply banning fossil fuels and nuclear plants immediately won’t
build the new economy to replace it – this is the plan to build that new economy and
spells out how to do it technically.
Are you for CCUS?
We believe the right way to capture carbon is to plant trees and restore our natural
ecosystems. CCUS technology to date has not proven effective.
How will you pay for it?
The same way we paid for the New Deal, the 2008 bank bailout and extended
quantitative easing programs. The same way we paid for World War II and all our
current wars. The Federal Reserve can extend credit to power these projects and
investments and new public banks can be created to extend credit. There is also
space for the government to take an equity stake in projects to get a return on
investment. At the end of the day, this is an investment in our economy that should
grow our wealth as a nation, so the question isn’t how will we pay for it, but what
will we do with our new shared prosperity.
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Post by Head Idiot on Fri Feb 08, 2019 5:53 pm

Page 4
AOC wrote: Why do we need a sweeping Green New Deal investment program? Why
can’t we just rely on regulations and taxes and the private sector to invest
alone such as a carbon tax or a ban on fossil fuels?
 The level of investment required is massive. Even if every billionaire and
company came together and were willing to pour all the resources at their
disposal into this investment, the aggregate value of the investments they
could make would not be sufficient.
 The speed of investment required will be massive. Even if all the billionaires
and companies could make the investments required, they would not be able
to pull together a coordinated response in the narrow window of time
required to jump-start major new projects and major new economic sectors.
Also, private companies are wary of making massive investments in unproven
research and technologies; the government, however, has the time horizon to
be able to patiently make investments in new tech and R&D, without
necessarily having a commercial outcome or application in mind at the time
the investment is made. Major examples of government investments in “new”
tech that subsequently spurred a boom in the private section include DARPA-
projects, the creation of the internet - and, perhaps most recently, the
government’s investment in Tesla.
 Simply put, we don’t need to just stop doing some things we are doing (like
using fossil fuels for energy needs); we also need to start doing new things
(like overhauling whole industries or retrofitting all buildings to be energy
efficient). Starting to do new things requires some upfront investment. In the
same way that a company that is trying to change how it does business may
need to make big upfront capital investments today in order to reap future
benefits (for e.g., building a new factory to increase production or buying new
hardware and software to totally modernize its IT system), a country that is
trying to change how its economy works will need to make big investments
today to jump-start and develop new projects and sectors to power the new
economy.
 Merely incentivizing the private sector doesn’t work - e.g. the tax incentives
and subsidies given to wind and solar projects have been a valuable spur to
growth in the US renewables industry but, even with such investment-
promotion subsidies, the present level of such projects is simply inadequate
to transition to a fully greenhouse gas neutral economy as quickly as needed.
 Once again, we’re not saying that there isn’t a role for private sector
investments; we’re just saying that the level of investment required will need
every actor to pitch in and that the government is best placed to be the
prime driver.
Resolution Summary
 Created in consultation with multiple groups from environmental
community, environmental justice community, and labor community
 5 goals in 10 years:
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Post by Head Idiot on Fri Feb 08, 2019 5:54 pm

Page 5
AOC wrote: o Net-zero greenhouse gas emissions through a fair and just transition
for all communities and workers
o Create millions of high-wage jobs and ensure prosperity and economic
security for all
o Invest in infrastructure and industry to sustainably meet the challenges
of the 21st century
o Clean air and water, climate and community resiliency, healthy food,
access to nature, and a sustainable environment for all
o Promote justice and equity by stopping current, preventing future, and
repairing historic oppression of frontline and vulnerable communities
 National mobilization our economy through 14 infrastructure and
industrial projects. Every project strives to remove greenhouse gas
emissions and pollution from every sector of our economy:
o Build infrastructure to create resiliency against climate change-related
disasters
o Repair and upgrade U.S. infrastructure. ASCE estimates this is $4.6
trillion at minimum.
o Meet 100% of power demand through clean and renewable energy
sources
o Build energy-efficient, distributed smart grids and ensure affordable
access to electricity
o Upgrade or replace every building in US for state-of-the-art energy
efficiency
o Massively expand clean manufacturing (like solar panel factories, wind
turbine factories, battery and storage manufacturing, energy efficient
manufacturing components) and remove pollution and greenhouse gas
emissions from manufacturing
o Work with farmers and ranchers to create a sustainable, pollution and
greenhouse gas free, food system that ensures universal access to
healthy food and expands independent family farming
o Totally overhaul transportation by massively expanding electric vehicle
manufacturing, build charging stations everywhere, build out high-
speed rail at a scale where air travel stops becoming necessary, create
affordable public transit available to all, with goal to replace every
combustion-engine vehicle
o Mitigate long-term health effects of climate change and pollution
o Remove greenhouse gases from our atmosphere and pollution through
afforestation, preservation, and other methods of restoring our natural
ecosystems
o Restore all our damaged and threatened ecosystems
o Clean up all the existing hazardous waste sites and abandoned sites
o Identify new emission sources and create solutions to eliminate those
emissions
o Make the US the leader in addressing climate change and share our
technology, expertise and products with the rest of the world to bring
about a global Green New Deal
 Social and economic justice and security through 15 requirements:
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Post by Head Idiot on Fri Feb 08, 2019 5:55 pm

Page 6
AOC wrote: o Massive federal investments and assistance to organizations and
businesses participating in the green new deal and ensuring the public
gets a return on that investment
o Ensure the environmental and social costs of emissions are taken into
account
o Provide job training and education to all
o Invest in R&D of new clean and renewable energy technologies
o Doing direct investments in frontline and deindustrialized communities
that would otherwise be hurt by the transition to prioritize economic
benefits there
o Use democratic and participatory processes led by frontline and
vulnerable communities to implement GND projects locally
o Ensure that all GND jobs are union jobs that pay prevailing wages and
hire local
o Guarantee a job with family-sustaining wages
o Protect right of all workers to unionize and organize
o Strengthen and enforce labor, workplace health and safety,
antidiscrimination, and wage and hour standards
o Enact and enforce trade rules to stop the transfer of jobs and pollution
overseas and grow domestic manufacturing
o Ensure public lands, waters, and oceans are protected and eminent
domain is not abused
o Obtain free, prior, and informed consent of Indigenous peoples
o Ensure an economic environment free of monopolies and unfair
competition
o Provide high-quality health care, housing, economic security, and clean
air, clean water, healthy food, and nature to all

I understand this document has since disappeared from anything associated with AOC.
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Post by Head Idiot on Fri Feb 08, 2019 8:38 pm

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Post by Teetime on Sat Feb 09, 2019 3:46 pm

Terrible....she is a demanding boss.

That is so sexist. If she were male that behavior would be expected.

"Some people who worked for Klobuchar say they valued the experience: Klobuchar has an unrivaled command of details, puts in long, enthusiastic hours, and simply demands that her office meet those same high standards, several former staffers maintained. Those employees described working for her as a challenge, but an exhilarating one that caused them to grow and perform their best work. They question whether former co-workers who thought she was abusive were falling for sexist stereotypes about female leaders with high standards."

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Post by Teetime on Sat Feb 09, 2019 3:48 pm

Imagine if our current president had only the baggage of being a demanding boss dragging him down. His approval rating would be 92%.


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Post by Head Idiot on Sat Feb 09, 2019 4:21 pm

Teetime wrote:Terrible....she is a demanding boss.

That is so sexist. If she were male that behavior would be expected.

"Some people who worked for Klobuchar say they valued the experience: Klobuchar has an unrivaled command of details, puts in long, enthusiastic hours, and simply demands that her office meet those same high standards, several former staffers maintained. Those employees described working for her as a challenge, but an exhilarating one that caused them to grow and perform their best work. They question whether former co-workers who thought she was abusive were falling for sexist stereotypes about female leaders with high standards."
This is probably a shot across the bow from the party. There's a reason this got released on the eve of her announcement. What, or who is behind it is a different question.

The highest turnover rate in DC is a significant stat. There are some real a-holes on Capitol Hill.
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Post by Teetime on Sat Feb 09, 2019 4:39 pm

"The highest turnover rate in DC is a significant stat. There are some real a-holes on Capitol Hill."


That is carefully worded to exclude the White House, where the turnover rate is triple Klobuchar's. If it comes down to Klobuchar vs. Trump this will be a non-factor.

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Post by BirdWatcher on Sat Feb 09, 2019 9:31 pm

Kamala Harris will be the Dem nominee. CNN & MSNBC have anointed her. The cartoon guy agrees.

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Post by Head Idiot on Sun Feb 10, 2019 12:32 am

Teetime wrote:"The highest turnover rate in DC is a significant stat. There are some real a-holes on Capitol Hill."


That is carefully worded to exclude the White House, where the turnover rate is triple Klobuchar's. If it comes down to Klobuchar vs. Trump this will be a non-factor.
Didn't you say all this stuff in 2016 too?
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Post by Teetime on Sun Feb 10, 2019 12:40 pm

I don't think the turnover rate of Trump vs Sen. Klobuchar office staff was a factor in 2016 either.

If I did say that I would have been correct.

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Post by Teetime on Mon Feb 11, 2019 8:44 pm


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Post by Head Idiot on Mon Feb 11, 2019 9:09 pm

I will send you a personal check for $25 is she's the Democratic nominee.
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Post by OSUBucks on Mon Feb 11, 2019 9:35 pm

I can't go for someone who is far to the political left but would look at someone like Klobuchar who would qualify as a Moderate, certainly for a Democrat. Some of these women running as well as Booker are way too far to the left for my taste and will jeopardize the Democrats chances if they secure the nomination IMO.

https://www.govtrack.us/congress/members/report-cards/2017/senate/ideology

https://progressivepunch.org/scores.htm?house=senate

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Post by Head Idiot on Mon Feb 11, 2019 9:52 pm

I think a moderate is a serious threat to Trump, but as moderates I think you and Tee are far underselling how far left a lot of Dems have went in the past 2 years.
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Post by Teetime on Mon Feb 11, 2019 10:30 pm


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Post by Teetime on Mon Feb 11, 2019 10:31 pm

Head Idiot wrote:I think a moderate is a serious threat to Trump, but as moderates I think you and Tee are far underselling how far left a lot of Dems have went in the past 2 years.


You watch too much FOX news

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