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Post by wolverine55 on Tue Dec 18, 2018 4:01 pm

The "glorified scrimmage" problem, if that is the right word, is in fact not a problem in Iowa. Those games are prepared for just as other games are prepared for, at least out of what I've seen coaching firsthand and viewing these games on film. Can't speak for other states that have the districts or similar set-ups.
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Post by lefty120 on Tue Dec 18, 2018 4:02 pm

Huck wrote:I don't think I could sit players.  Pulling them early, sure.  If these non-district games are early, I'd want them to work into the season, get those first game mistakes out of the way.  If they are late, I am more worried about losing the quality during the week of practice if players know they won't be playing.  I like the idea of taking guys into a game that is supposed to be beyond their abilities.  If they do better than expected, it is a great confidence boost.  If they don't, you tell them, who cares?  They weren't supposed to anyway.  But you really still get the benefit of them seeing the level they need to aspire to.  And no reason to schedule someone who thumps you twice anymore than those two times.  When redistricting happens, new openings will happen as well.

All good points.

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Post by lefty120 on Tue Dec 18, 2018 4:03 pm

wolverine55 wrote:The "glorified scrimmage" problem, if that is the right word, is in fact not a problem in Iowa.  Those games are prepared for just as other games are prepared for, at least out of what I've seen coaching firsthand and viewing these games on film.  Can't speak for other states that have the districts or similar set-ups.

Do your non district games have any bearing on post season play at all? Can a team go 0-2 in those games and still get a 1 seed per day?

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Post by lefty120 on Tue Dec 18, 2018 4:14 pm

Head Idiot wrote:
lefty120 wrote:Totally agree with that. However, how many of those other sports didn’t benefit from moving leagues?  Lincoln is in a very rare situation if you ask me. I’d be interested in seeing the number of schools whose athletic programs as a whole didn’t improve with the league change.

Just looking at some of the schools in southern IL who have changed leagues, Paris, Olney, Newton, Robinson, Taylorville, Mattoon, Salem...all have seen positive changes for their entire athletic department. I know, small sample size, but I’d be curious to see other than Lincoln, how many schools have athletic programs who have suffered from conference changes.
Clinton's athletic program's success hasn't changed one bit from a move from the Corn Belt, to the Okaw, to the CIC.  All moves prompted for football.  If anything, they've won less now playing 1A/2A teams than they did playing 3/4A teams when I was in school.

Lincoln's move was done at the expense of virtually every other program.  Basketball is going to be successful despite where they end up, but baseball just had their worst season in program history last spring.  Girls volleyball was equally terrible this fall.

Argenta moved out of the Okaw for football and it has destroyed what used to be a successful sport for them- wrestling.  No one in the CIC has it, so they end up travelling all over God's creation to get duals.  Numbers are way down in what used to be a somewhat decent power.  They used to be a top 20 team in the state nearly year in and year out.  This year, they may have 10 kids total on the team.  Basketball and other sports haven't seen any increase in success either.

Not being argumentative, but you cited two teams other than the one I mentioned in my post. You gotta have more than that if you’re going to sell me on the whole ‘We are moving conferences for a playoff hoodie’ thing. And I totally agree Argenta had a great wrestling program and their move has very much hurt that. And I’ll also agree that football drives many league changes; still don’t believe that those changes don’t end up benefiting all sports in almost all of these moves.

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Post by SIFBCoach7 on Tue Dec 18, 2018 4:21 pm

Bighitter11 wrote:We have 2 Openings on our exhibition schedule starting in 2021 if anyone is open.

Give us a call....
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Post by Head Idiot on Tue Dec 18, 2018 4:29 pm

lefty120 wrote:
Head Idiot wrote:
lefty120 wrote:Totally agree with that. However, how many of those other sports didn’t benefit from moving leagues?  Lincoln is in a very rare situation if you ask me. I’d be interested in seeing the number of schools whose athletic programs as a whole didn’t improve with the league change.

Just looking at some of the schools in southern IL who have changed leagues, Paris, Olney, Newton, Robinson, Taylorville, Mattoon, Salem...all have seen positive changes for their entire athletic department. I know, small sample size, but I’d be curious to see other than Lincoln, how many schools have athletic programs who have suffered from conference changes.
Clinton's athletic program's success hasn't changed one bit from a move from the Corn Belt, to the Okaw, to the CIC.  All moves prompted for football.  If anything, they've won less now playing 1A/2A teams than they did playing 3/4A teams when I was in school.

Lincoln's move was done at the expense of virtually every other program.  Basketball is going to be successful despite where they end up, but baseball just had their worst season in program history last spring.  Girls volleyball was equally terrible this fall.

Argenta moved out of the Okaw for football and it has destroyed what used to be a successful sport for them- wrestling.  No one in the CIC has it, so they end up travelling all over God's creation to get duals.  Numbers are way down in what used to be a somewhat decent power.  They used to be a top 20 team in the state nearly year in and year out.  This year, they may have 10 kids total on the team.  Basketball and other sports haven't seen any increase in success either.

Not being argumentative, but you cited two teams other than the one I mentioned in my post. You gotta have more than that if you’re going to sell me on the whole ‘We are moving conferences for a playoff hoodie’ thing. And I totally agree Argenta had a great wrestling program and their move has very much hurt that. And I’ll also agree that football drives many league changes; still don’t believe that those changes don’t end up benefiting all sports in almost all of these moves.
Ok.  Those were just 2 I have personal experience with.

Shelbyville Cross Country

Mahomet Wrestling- it hasn't led to a great downfall yet, but the Apollo SUUUUCKS in wrestling- they're also only in year 2 of the shift.

Sangamon Valley hasn't seen an increase, or decrease really in wins in any sport since moving from the LOVC to the Sangamo, back to the LOVC.  The last move purely motivated by football- which the past couple years hasn't helped it win either.

These are just a few.  I don't honestly know of a lot, because outside any personal involvement or friendships with coaches, I don't really pay a ton of attention to most sports outside football.


Last edited by Head Idiot on Tue Dec 18, 2018 4:31 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by Head Idiot on Tue Dec 18, 2018 4:30 pm

I can almost guarantee you that conference jumps will go from near double digits yearly to maybe 6 a year now.
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Post by wolverine55 on Tue Dec 18, 2018 4:36 pm

lefty120 wrote:
wolverine55 wrote:The "glorified scrimmage" problem, if that is the right word, is in fact not a problem in Iowa.  Those games are prepared for just as other games are prepared for, at least out of what I've seen coaching firsthand and viewing these games on film.  Can't speak for other states that have the districts or similar set-ups.

Do your non district games have any bearing on post season play at all?  Can a team go 0-2 in those games and still get a 1 seed per day?

Prior to 2018, no the non-district games had no bearing on post-season play at all. Starting this season, Iowa implemented an "RPI" system so the non-district games could effect your seeding.
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Post by lefty120 on Tue Dec 18, 2018 4:45 pm

wolverine55 wrote:
lefty120 wrote:
wolverine55 wrote:The "glorified scrimmage" problem, if that is the right word, is in fact not a problem in Iowa.  Those games are prepared for just as other games are prepared for, at least out of what I've seen coaching firsthand and viewing these games on film.  Can't speak for other states that have the districts or similar set-ups.

Do your non district games have any bearing on post season play at all?  Can a team go 0-2 in those games and still get a 1 seed per day?

Prior to 2018, no the non-district games had no bearing on post-season play at all.  Starting this season, Iowa implemented an "RPI" system so the non-district games could effect your seeding.

Good to know. I'll be interested to see if that idea is added to the current district plan after a couple of cycles playing the way it has been passed.

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Post by OSUBucks on Tue Dec 18, 2018 4:56 pm

Here's a complete list of all proposals passed. It's going to be interesting for sure.


https://www.ihsa.org/NewsMedia/Announcements/tabid/93/ID/1610/IHSA-Schools-Approve-Football-Districting-10-Other-Proposals.aspx
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Post by lefty120 on Tue Dec 18, 2018 4:58 pm

Head Idiot wrote:
lefty120 wrote:
Head Idiot wrote:
lefty120 wrote:Totally agree with that. However, how many of those other sports didn’t benefit from moving leagues?  Lincoln is in a very rare situation if you ask me. I’d be interested in seeing the number of schools whose athletic programs as a whole didn’t improve with the league change.

Just looking at some of the schools in southern IL who have changed leagues, Paris, Olney, Newton, Robinson, Taylorville, Mattoon, Salem...all have seen positive changes for their entire athletic department. I know, small sample size, but I’d be curious to see other than Lincoln, how many schools have athletic programs who have suffered from conference changes.
Clinton's athletic program's success hasn't changed one bit from a move from the Corn Belt, to the Okaw, to the CIC.  All moves prompted for football.  If anything, they've won less now playing 1A/2A teams than they did playing 3/4A teams when I was in school.

Lincoln's move was done at the expense of virtually every other program.  Basketball is going to be successful despite where they end up, but baseball just had their worst season in program history last spring.  Girls volleyball was equally terrible this fall.

Argenta moved out of the Okaw for football and it has destroyed what used to be a successful sport for them- wrestling.  No one in the CIC has it, so they end up travelling all over God's creation to get duals.  Numbers are way down in what used to be a somewhat decent power.  They used to be a top 20 team in the state nearly year in and year out.  This year, they may have 10 kids total on the team.  Basketball and other sports haven't seen any increase in success either.

Not being argumentative, but you cited two teams other than the one I mentioned in my post. You gotta have more than that if you’re going to sell me on the whole ‘We are moving conferences for a playoff hoodie’ thing. And I totally agree Argenta had a great wrestling program and their move has very much hurt that. And I’ll also agree that football drives many league changes; still don’t believe that those changes don’t end up benefiting all sports in almost all of these moves.
Ok.  Those were just 2 I have personal experience with.

Shelbyville Cross Country

Mahomet Wrestling- it hasn't led to a great downfall yet, but the Apollo SUUUUCKS in wrestling- they're also only in year 2 of the shift.

Sangamon Valley hasn't seen an increase, or decrease really in wins in any sport since moving from the LOVC to the Sangamo, back to the LOVC.  The last move purely motivated by football- which the past couple years hasn't helped it win either.

These are just a few.  I don't honestly know of a lot, because outside any personal involvement or friendships with coaches, I don't really pay a ton of attention to most sports outside football.

So basically not that many that you can think of. And yes, the Apollo does suck in wrestling, that is certain. I'll say again, you need to look beyond your area and the schools you are familiar with. Statistically, the conference jumping was not as big of a problem as it has been made out to be. 15% of 523 football playing schools is 78 schools...78 schools changed conferences in the last 10 years? That's an awful lot! Have some changed multiple times? Yes. But I think you're hard pressed to find that many that have changed even once. Maybe you will, but I doubt it. And to me, that still doesn't warrant such a drastic shift in our system.

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Post by Bighitter11 on Tue Dec 18, 2018 5:01 pm

newcom wrote:Sample 2A District
District 1: 5 Chicago teams, 2 suburban teams, and Rockford team
District 2: EPC, West Carroll, Riverdale, Orion, Newman, Bureau Valley, Amboy, and Fieldcrest
District 3: 2 suburban schools, Momence, Clifton, Watseka, Bismarck, Fithian, and Westville
District 4: Rockridge, Mercer County, Knoxville, West Prairie, West Hancock, Illini West, Rushville, and Mendon
District 5: Tremont, DeeMack, El Paso, Tri-Valley, Ridgeview, Gibson City, Athens, and Maroa-Forsyth
District 6: Decatur schools, Sangamon Valley, Auburn, Pawnee, Nokomis, Pana, and Shelbyville
District 7: Villa Grove, Arthur, Marshall, Oblong, Flora, Hamilton County, White County, and Eldorado
District 8: Chester, Sparta, Red Bud, Carlyle, Wesclin, Johnston City, Gillespie, and Litchfield


That District 3 Matchup for a Suburban School and Westville is only about a 3 Hour Trip. Remember Folks Districts will cut down on travel!
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Post by Head Idiot on Tue Dec 18, 2018 5:03 pm

Literally every conference in Central Illinois from Pontiac to Quincy to Vandalia to Paris is different than it was from 5-10 years ago. All for football. The Okaw Valley changed 4 times in just the 10 years I coached in it. The LOVC three times in 7 years. And that's not an anomaly compared to other Central and Northern Illinois conferences.
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Post by Head Idiot on Tue Dec 18, 2018 5:04 pm

I certainly can't think of ANY program besides football that has benefited from a conference change.
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Post by Bighitter11 on Tue Dec 18, 2018 5:06 pm

Head Idiot wrote:
lefty120 wrote:Don’t be fooled by the small number of loud voices. And let’s be real here...who cares if teams are conference jumping??  The only teams that this is really helping are those that can’t find games to fill there schedule. Then the number REALLY drops!  If a team moves conferences I’d be willing to bet 99% of them are improving their situation. Again, who cares? Good for them.

2 meaningless games to start the season is going to have a MUCH different impact than what the framers of this proposal intended.
I would wager the other 28 sports that are continually jerked around just so someone can get a playoff hoodie probably cares about conference jumping.  I know that soccer kid in Lincoln that has to drive to Effingham on a Tuesday night just so the football team can hope to win 5 games cares.  I know the volleyball girl that drives from Maroa to Pittsfield on a Thursday night because other area teams got sick of losing to their football team cares.

You can't possibly look at anyone with a straight face and say that conference jumping isn't for any other reason than to service one sport and only one sport.


Could of just formed Districts for the other 28 Sports Would be alot easier too considering their postseason is 3 or 4 classes compared to 8.
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Post by lefty120 on Tue Dec 18, 2018 5:08 pm

We agree to disagree...that's okay! All the schools I know of from south of you, their entire athletic departments on a whole have benefited from the conference change. Obviously there's always going to be a sport here or there that won't in any school, but overall, they've benefited.

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Post by tincup1215 on Tue Dec 18, 2018 6:28 pm

Head Idiot wrote:
lefty120 wrote:Don’t be fooled by the small number of loud voices. And let’s be real here...who cares if teams are conference jumping??  The only teams that this is really helping are those that can’t find games to fill there schedule. Then the number REALLY drops!  If a team moves conferences I’d be willing to bet 99% of them are improving their situation. Again, who cares? Good for them.

2 meaningless games to start the season is going to have a MUCH different impact than what the framers of this proposal intended.
I would wager the other 28 sports that are continually jerked around just so someone can get a playoff hoodie probably cares about conference jumping.  I know that soccer kid in Lincoln that has to drive to Effingham on a Tuesday night just so the football team can hope to win 5 games cares.  I know the volleyball girl that drives from Maroa to Pittsfield on a Thursday night because other area teams got sick of losing to their football team cares.

You can't possibly look at anyone with a straight face and say that conference jumping isn't for any other reason than to service one sport and only one sport.

preach cheers
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Post by Head Idiot on Tue Dec 18, 2018 8:23 pm

I attempted to explain this to my wife. Her response?

"So, it's like the Hunger Games?"

Laughing Laughing Laughing
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Post by Pike Bishop on Wed Dec 19, 2018 12:42 am

lefty120 wrote:As someone who has been involved with IHSA football for over 30 years as a fan, player, assistant coach, and head coach, I can’t tell you how fearful I am for the future of our game. As BH said, the fact we play 2 meaningless games at the beginning of the season just floors me.

I am not against change...quite the contrary...but I am against meaningless change. This is a direct reflection of our immediate gratification society trying to fix a problem that only affects a small % of its membership.

I have coached for 39 years. I'm old school, I always liked the rivalries created in conferences. The coaching situation I am in now, our farthest road trip is 30 minutes. We some great rivalries and our conference schedule prepares us for the playoffs. Our staff does not like the change because we will have to do much more traveling (with many schools districts struggling financially, I can see this as a big problem with added travel expenses), no rivalries, and the competition will not prepare us for the playoffs. In many cases, the freshmen, sophomore/JV schedule will be different from the varsity. How many schools will jump conferences again (Lincoln back in the CS-8 for example) because of district football or drop football because of travel time and added expenses?

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Post by Head Idiot on Wed Dec 19, 2018 10:03 am

Pike Bishop wrote:
lefty120 wrote:As someone who has been involved with IHSA football for over 30 years as a fan, player, assistant coach, and head coach, I can’t tell you how fearful I am for the future of our game. As BH said, the fact we play 2 meaningless games at the beginning of the season just floors me.

I am not against change...quite the contrary...but I am against meaningless change. This is a direct reflection of our immediate gratification society trying to fix a problem that only affects a small % of its membership.

I have coached for 39 years. I'm old school, I always liked the rivalries created in conferences. The coaching situation I am in now, our farthest road trip is 30 minutes. We some great rivalries and our conference schedule prepares us for the playoffs. Our staff does not like the change because we will have to do much more traveling (with many schools districts struggling financially, I can see this as a big problem with added travel expenses), no rivalries, and the competition will not prepare us for the playoffs. In many cases, the freshmen, sophomore/JV schedule will be different from the varsity. How many schools will jump conferences again (Lincoln back in the CS-8 for example) because of district football or drop football because of travel time and added expenses?
In the past 4 years coaching at schools ranging from 1/2A to a 3A school to a 4/5A school this year, I haven't seen a JV schedule that's the same as a varsity one because people don't have numbers to have those levels.
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Post by wolverine55 on Wed Dec 19, 2018 10:18 am

Ours was the same with the exception of our Week 1 opponent and our Week 8 opponent...and that is by far the closest ours has been in my 7 years coaching here in Iowa. I guess I didn't realize it would be that big a deal...
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Post by Head Idiot on Wed Dec 19, 2018 10:27 am

wolverine55 wrote:Ours was the same with the exception of our Week 1 opponent and our Week 8 opponent...and that is by far the closest ours has been in my 7 years coaching here in Iowa.  I guess I didn't realize it would be that big a deal...
I don't think it is. Having to find lower level games was already pretty much a way of life for 95% of the schools 4A and below anyway.
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Post by lefty120 on Wed Dec 19, 2018 10:27 am

Lower class schedules will be interesting this coming year regardless with the newly instituted practice rules. Lots of programs out there struggling to survive forced to play kids at 2-3 levels in a week.

Wolverine, how's your travel? Many potential districts in Illinois have some awfully hefty average travel times. I'll also be interested to see how much pull the Chicago Catholic League has when a number of their teams have to travel into the city to play Public League teams.

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Post by Head Idiot on Wed Dec 19, 2018 10:36 am

Pike Bishop wrote:(Lincoln back in the CS-8 for example)
I think you might have a 3-5 year period where a lot of the old conferences come back to life, but after that I doubt you'll see any movement at all unless it's the occasional school dying off, or exploding in population scenarios.
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Post by wolverine55 on Wed Dec 19, 2018 10:40 am

lefty120 wrote:Lower class schedules will be interesting this coming year regardless with the newly instituted practice rules.  Lots of programs out there struggling to survive forced to play kids at 2-3 levels in a week.  

Wolverine, how's your travel?  Many potential districts in Illinois have some awfully hefty average travel times.  I'll also be interested to see how much pull the Chicago Catholic League has when a number of their teams have to travel into the city to play Public League teams.  

I would classify our travel as "not awful". We normally have to travel further to fill our non-district games than our district. I'm doing this off the top of my head, but next year our travel times will be:

Week 1: approximately 90 minutes
Week 3: approximately 45 minutes
Week 5: approximately 90 minutes
Week 8: approximately 2 hours
Week 9: approximately 20 minutes

This year, we only had to travel four times and it was shorter: 45 minutes, 2 hours, 45 minutes, and an hour.

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