School shootings galore

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Re: School shootings galore

Post by SIFBCoach7 on Wed Feb 28, 2018 5:08 pm

Teetime wrote:
SIFBCoach7 wrote:

3 Republicans on this bill.  Total.  


You mean 3 voted for it? 6 of the 20 Republican Senators voted for it (30%): 20 of the 45 Republican house members voted for it (44%)

Looks like it was signed by Gov. Rauner.

No?

3 Republican sponsor/authors.

I didn't have time today to look at the actual vote tally.

EDIT - Senate Vote results.
http://www.ilga.gov/legislation/votehistory/99/senate/09900SB0100_05312015_027000C.pdf

House - http://www.ilga.gov/legislation/votehistory/99/house/09900SB0100_05202015_006000T.pdf


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Re: School shootings galore

Post by SIFBCoach7 on Wed Feb 28, 2018 5:17 pm

Teetime wrote:
SIFBCoach7 wrote:
Teetime wrote:

Ok, I'll bite.

The law as outlined here bans automatic weapons, and those that have a 10 round capacity or more. I didn't read the law, but tell me what are the "common sense" deficiencies outlined here.

Honestly I'd be happy with everyone accepting the "Dick's Sporting Goods" act as a law.

Automatic weapons are already illegal.  This bill isn't just for an AR...it's for multiple platforms.  Those semi-auto handguns with 10+ round capacity eliminate A LOT of firearms.  To say that Representative Cicilline's bill isn't going after more than "assault weapons" is disingenuous.  It's a confiscation program designed to make 99% of law abiding gun owners instant felons.

I also feel that the Dick's Sporting Goods decision will backfire.  Their stuff is overpriced anyway, and responsible gun owners will just increase business elsewhere.  By the way, Dick's also pulled this media stunt after Sandy Hook, and then quietly just started selling their "assault" weapons again.  Probably after they realized how much business they lost.  People won't stop buying things because 1 company tries to please the media and left.  

I like Rural King better anyway.

Wait....did the proposed bill call for the confiscation of any weapons? I said I didn't read it, but that would be wrong. Are you saying 99% of current gun owners have a weapon that bill would ban? That seems very high.

If this bill makes any semi-automatic handgun with a capacity of more than 10 rounds illegal, it would mean that a very popular Glock 23 with a standard magazine that holds 13 bullets, would now be illegal to own and anyone that has it would have to destroy, turn in (confiscation), or be a felon (if caught). That's just one example. Every manufacturer has a handgun in every caliber that fits this description. My "99%" is probably too high, but I can tell you I would have to turn in at least one of my firearms, or face possible prosecution. How is that going to solve school shootings?

The only semi-autos left "legal", by this bills definition, would be all of the single-stack CCL guns that hold 6-9 rounds. And revolvers.

The Virginia Tech shooter used semi-auto pistols in the deadliest school shooting to date. It not matters the device, but the desire of the shooter.

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Re: School shootings galore

Post by 4a(6afornet)north on Wed Feb 28, 2018 5:29 pm

The previous ban in 1994 only applied to guns manufactured after the bills enactment.Would expect something similar if it even gets considered.

Honestly don't expect anything to happen since every day that passes the tragic event gets farther away from every ones minds......until the next tragic event happens be it a workplace or concert or even another school................


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Re: School shootings galore

Post by OSUBucks on Wed Feb 28, 2018 5:35 pm

SIFBCoach7 wrote:
Teetime wrote:

Ok, I'll bite.

The law as outlined here bans automatic weapons, and those that have a 10 round capacity or more. I didn't read the law, but tell me what are the "common sense" deficiencies outlined here.

Honestly I'd be happy with everyone accepting the "Dick's Sporting Goods" act as a law.

Automatic weapons are already illegal.  This bill isn't just for an AR...it's for multiple platforms.  Those semi-auto handguns with 10+ round capacity eliminate A LOT of firearms.  To say that Representative Cicilline's bill isn't going after more than "assault weapons" is disingenuous.  It's a confiscation program designed to make 99% of law abiding gun owners instant felons.

I also feel that the Dick's Sporting Goods decision will backfire.  Their stuff is overpriced anyway, and responsible gun owners will just increase business elsewhere.  By the way, Dick's also pulled this media stunt after Sandy Hook, and then quietly just started selling their "assault" weapons again.  Probably after they realized how much business they lost.  People won't stop buying things because 1 company tries to please the media and left.  

I like Rural King better anyway.

Agree, this bill puts us a step closer to confiscation. In your average gun store over half of the handguns, (if you exclude revolvers) would become illegal. This won't become law under the current administration. If the Democrats take over Washington and pass this same bill into law it will be litigated and likely end up being thrown out by a court. I don't think it will even make it to the SCOTUS. I agree with the Dick's comment. I've never bought a firearm from them. Farm and Home in Springfield has better prices and Scheels has a great selection.
I don't know if there will ever be another Civil War in the US but I can tell you that it's going to get really ugly if the gun control zealots ever realize their dream and initiate a confiscation policy.
I have friends that live in rural areas. One of my hunting buddies is 20 minutes away from the nearest law enforcement. Imagine a Liberal politician who lives in a gated community with security telling my buddy that he can't own the handgun of his choice to protect his family because they thought it best to ban that handgun. If that isn't elitism I don't know what is.
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Re: School shootings galore

Post by SIFBCoach7 on Wed Feb 28, 2018 5:47 pm

4a(6afornet)north wrote:The previous ban in 1994 only applied to guns manufactured after the bills enactment.Would expect something similar if it even gets considered.

Honestly don't expect anything to happen since every day that passes the tragic event gets farther away from every ones minds......until the next tragic event happens be it  a workplace or concert or even another school................


I don't think that's what the goal of this bill is. Common sense tells you that if you only ban it from [here] going forward, it still leaves a lot of weapons available. And does nothing to achieve the goal of eliminating the "assault weapon".
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Re: School shootings galore

Post by Teetime on Wed Feb 28, 2018 6:48 pm

So does the proposed bill call for confiscation or outlaw the use of those banned weapons that are already in circulation?

Imagine a politician in a rural area saying my next-door neighbor with the lunatic 14 year old can own a semi-automatic rifle just because the politician lives 20 minutes away from a law enforcement service. We already live in a gated community with armed guards and fences to keep the likes of you out, and we pay dearly for those services. What an elitist that lawmaker is for making a law to benefit him, but to put my wife and kids at risk with this lunatic kid and his weapon of war.

See how that cuts both ways?

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Re: School shootings galore

Post by OSUBucks on Wed Feb 28, 2018 7:00 pm

Teetime wrote:So does the proposed bill call for confiscation or outlaw the use of those banned weapons that are already in circulation?

Imagine a politician in a rural area saying my next-door neighbor with the lunatic 14 year old can own a semi-automatic rifle just because the politician lives 20 minutes away from a law enforcement service. We already live in a gated community with armed guards and fences to keep the likes of you out, and we pay dearly for those services. What an elitist that lawmaker is for making a law to benefit him, but to put my wife and kids at risk with this lunatic kid and his weapon of war.

See how that cuts both ways?

That makes little sense unless you are agreeing with me that the US is doing a woefully inadequate job of dealing with the mentally ill. Call your Democrat congressman and insist that a mental health component that really has some teeth be included in any bill that is eventually passed to make our schools safer. We must keep weapons away from the mentally ill. I have already agreed with you that a man doesn't need an AR-15 to protect his family.
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Re: School shootings galore

Post by Teetime on Wed Feb 28, 2018 7:07 pm

I agree with you.

All of my congressmen are Republican. I write them all the time....they don't like me. I know that seems impossible, but it's true.

I don't really think anything the Democrats in the House of Representatives put together sees a vote in this congress. Nothing has yet anyway.

Sen. Durbin already knows how I feel.

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Re: School shootings galore

Post by OSUBucks on Wed Feb 28, 2018 9:02 pm

Teetime wrote:I agree with you.

All of my congressmen are Republican. I write them all the time....they don't like me. I know that seems impossible, but it's true.

I don't really think anything the Democrats in the House of Representatives put together sees a vote in this congress. Nothing has yet anyway.

Sen. Durbin already knows how I feel.

I can't believe that they don't like you. Smile The last time I called Davis's office the lady was polite but later when it was time to vote Davis voted against my wishes. I'm looking for Trump to get something passed that will at least have a couple items that the Democrats want. On the state level Rauner will sign a bill if he thinks it will help his chances of being reelected. Regardless it's a pretty safe bet that we will have a new Governor in January 2019. Rauner is the most vulnerable GOP Governor in the country.
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Re: School shootings galore

Post by Teetime on Wed Feb 28, 2018 10:37 pm

SIFBCoach7 wrote:I also feel that the Dick's Sporting Goods decision will backfire.  Their stuff is overpriced anyway, and responsible gun owners will just increase business elsewhere.  By the way, Dick's also pulled this media stunt after Sandy Hook, and then quietly just started selling their "assault" weapons again.  Probably after they realized how much business they lost.  People won't stop buying things because 1 company tries to please the media and left.  

I like Rural King better anyway.

You will have to boycott Walmart now as well.

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Re: School shootings galore

Post by Teetime on Thu Mar 01, 2018 7:58 am

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2018/03/donald-trumps-gun-control-meeting-was-a-nightmare-for-republicans.html

At this televised meeting yesterday the President proposed taking guns away from individuals prior to any hearing on their competence.

That is not a position that even I agree with. He is out in front of all members of the Democratic Party in his gun control positions.

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Re: School shootings galore

Post by SIFBCoach7 on Thu Mar 01, 2018 10:11 am

Teetime wrote:
SIFBCoach7 wrote:I also feel that the Dick's Sporting Goods decision will backfire.  Their stuff is overpriced anyway, and responsible gun owners will just increase business elsewhere.  By the way, Dick's also pulled this media stunt after Sandy Hook, and then quietly just started selling their "assault" weapons again.  Probably after they realized how much business they lost.  People won't stop buying things because 1 company tries to please the media and left.  

I like Rural King better anyway.

You will have to boycott Walmart now as well.

I've tried to boycott Walmart my entire life, anyway. Very Happy
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Re: School shootings galore

Post by SIFBCoach7 on Thu Mar 01, 2018 10:26 am

Teetime wrote:https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2018/03/donald-trumps-gun-control-meeting-was-a-nightmare-for-republicans.html

At this televised meeting yesterday the President proposed taking guns away from individuals prior to any hearing on their competence.

That is not a position that even I agree with. He is out in front of all members of the Democratic Party in his gun control positions.

Read the article and I did not like Trumps words or flip flopping.

Things I can get behind and reasonable:
- Fix NICS Act
- Background check for all purchases
- Conceal Carry Reciprocity

The first 2 will go farther to eliminate mass shootings than any gun ban ever would.
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Re: School shootings galore

Post by Teetime on Thu Mar 01, 2018 10:57 am

I agree.

I think raising the gun buying age to 21 is also a good idea.

The last one seems to make whichever state has the most lax concealed carry law become the law of the land. I don't want Mississippi to dictate concealed carry laws in Illinois.

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Re: School shootings galore

Post by SIFBCoach7 on Thu Mar 01, 2018 11:39 am

I think the issue with raising the gun buying age is the military exception...you have to allow 18 year olds to enter the military because some of them need that as an option. But, they also have to be able to use weapons. So there becomes a conundrum of them being "responsible" enough to shoot and handle weapons as a military member, but not as a civilian?

Other than that, I'd have no problem with it.
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Re: School shootings galore

Post by Teetime on Thu Mar 01, 2018 12:42 pm

Military exception granted....lets write a law!

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Re: School shootings galore

Post by general maximus on Thu Mar 01, 2018 1:40 pm

Teetime wrote:Military exception granted....lets write a law!

So you can vote at 18, but are still precluded from being able to purchase an AR-15?

You can be tried as an adult for a crime, but cannot purchase a handgun?

You can be asked to defend your country with a weapon, but not defend your family with a weapon you can purchase? (this is the exception clause)

Not all AR-15s are used to shoot up schools.



BTW, I really am conflicted with many of you on this. Ijust keep coming back to the idea that you cannot legislate morality into an immoral individual or society.

The system we have now is clearly not effective in preventing mentally deranged people from doing these things. Age is the topic when it prob shouldn't be.

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Re: School shootings galore

Post by Head Idiot on Thu Mar 01, 2018 1:44 pm

So, we can't trust an 18 year old with a gun until they're 21, but we should let 16 year olds vote? Seems like perfect logic.

https://www.thenation.com/article/lower-the-voting-age-to-16/
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Re: School shootings galore

Post by SIFBCoach7 on Thu Mar 01, 2018 1:51 pm

I think the age change is a huge deal. Just pointing out the inconsistencies with other existing laws like military and voting etc. A couple other responses to your quetions, GM...
-Not disagreeing with this inconsistency.
-You already cannot purchase a handgun until age 21.
-Would create another inconsistency
-Accurate

I am 100% in agreement that NO gun law that is passed will end school shootings. As I said previously, it's the desire, not the device that causes these atrocities.
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Re: School shootings galore

Post by Teetime on Thu Mar 01, 2018 4:34 pm

general maximus wrote:So you can vote at 18, but are still precluded from being able to purchase an AR-15?

You can be tried as an adult for a crime, but cannot purchase a handgun?

You can be asked to defend your country with a weapon, but not defend your family with a weapon you can purchase?  (this is the exception clause)

Not all AR-15s are used to shoot up schools.  



BTW, I really am conflicted with many of you on this.  Ijust keep coming back to the idea that you cannot legislate morality into an immoral individual or society.  

The system we have now is clearly not effective in preventing mentally deranged people from doing these things.  Age is the topic when it prob shouldn't be.  

I think there is a pretty big difference between voting, drinking a beer, and owning a semi-automatic rifle. Why does the same age need to be used for all three?

I'm sure it's a very small percentage of the AR15's used to shoot up schools, our bill doesn't ban them, or confiscate them, it only makes it harder to get one. It should be hard to get one. It should be damned hard. You should have to be older than 18. Eighteen year-olds are not very mature yet. I'm happier if you have to be 45 to buy an AR-15, but I'm compromising.

What do trying a person for a crime and their buying a handgun have to do with one another? Another nonsensical comparison. I don't see why you can't be old enough for one but not the other.






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Re: School shootings galore

Post by Teetime on Thu Mar 01, 2018 5:25 pm

general maximus wrote:BTW, I really am conflicted with many of you on this.  Ijust keep coming back to the idea that you cannot legislate morality into an immoral individual or society.  

The system we have now is clearly not effective in preventing mentally deranged people from doing these things.  Age is the topic when it prob shouldn't be.  


It seems to me that this is not an attempt to legislate morality. That was taken care of with "Thou Shalt Not Kill". (Rule #1)

It doesn't always work, but it has stood the test of time.

We are trying to legislate gun ownership in an effort to keep deadly weapons out of the hands of those not able to understand or appreciate Rule #1 above.

You must hate laws that attempt to ban late term abortions if you are so opposed to legislating morality.

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Re: School shootings galore

Post by niewi 24 on Thu Mar 01, 2018 10:58 pm

My entire district watched a video on mental health of children and then how a vicious cycle continues when they become adults. I found the gist of the 60 minute video here as a fifteen unite TED Talk. Worth your 15 minutes. Glad to see a bunch of dudes in a message board share ideas and being willing to work and compromise with each other. If only...

https://www.ted.com/talks/nadine_burke_harris_how_childhood_trauma_affects_health_across_a_lifetime
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Re: School shootings galore

Post by general maximus on Fri Mar 02, 2018 10:38 am

Teetime wrote:
general maximus wrote:So you can vote at 18, but are still precluded from being able to purchase an AR-15?

You can be tried as an adult for a crime, but cannot purchase a handgun?

You can be asked to defend your country with a weapon, but not defend your family with a weapon you can purchase?  (this is the exception clause)

Not all AR-15s are used to shoot up schools.  



BTW, I really am conflicted with many of you on this.  Ijust keep coming back to the idea that you cannot legislate morality into an immoral individual or society.  

The system we have now is clearly not effective in preventing mentally deranged people from doing these things.  Age is the topic when it prob shouldn't be.  

I think there is a pretty big difference between voting, drinking a beer, and owning a semi-automatic rifle. Why does the same age need to be used for all three?

I'm sure it's a very small percentage of the AR15's used to shoot up schools, our bill doesn't ban them, or confiscate them, it only makes it harder to get one. It should be hard to get one. It should be damned hard. You should have to be older than 18. Eighteen year-olds are not very mature yet. I'm happier if you have to be 45 to buy an AR-15, but I'm compromising.

What do trying a person for a crime and their buying a handgun have to do with one another? Another nonsensical comparison. I don't see why you can't be old enough for one but not the other.






I think there is a pretty big difference between voting, drinking a beer, and owning a semi-automatic rifle. Why does the same age need to be used for all three?  
------Is this like conditional rights?  Some rights are given to men, but other rights are not?  Sounds a little bit like Jim Crow laws to me......How very Democrat of you.   That is tongue and cheek.  I know you do not feel that Jim Crow Laws were appropriate, but we have to be careful of that slippery slope.

I don't own a AR, but I certainly do not want to be precluded of buying one if I thought I wanted or needed one (Not 45yrs old yet, so I guess I am out)

What do trying a person for a crime and their buying a handgun have to do with one another? Another nonsensical comparison. I don't see why you can't be old enough for one but not the other.-----------I am saying that if you can be tried as an adult for a crime, you should be able to have all the rights that other adults have.  Not parse them out with age.  Adult is Adult.----although, I think lots of 18yr olds are not even close to mature, So maybe I agree with you on the Military Exception.  But that becomes really convoluted.  

And YES, ABORTION in Late terms is even more repulsive than I can imagine.  I teach 20 feet from a woman who had her twins 3 years ago prematurely.  They were born before the time that allows late term abortions.  Those kids were born, survived, and now thrive when some would allow them to be terminated.

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