Charlottesville, VA.

Page 3 of 4 Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next

View previous topic View next topic Go down

Re: Charlottesville, VA.

Post by Head Skin on Sun Aug 20, 2017 8:22 pm

No I am not blaming her, but perhaps the fervor would not have reached that point without the escalations of that morning.
avatar
Head Skin
Legends of Bench

Posts : 8744
Join date : 2008-09-23
Age : 100
Location : Here

Back to top Go down

Re: Charlottesville, VA.

Post by Pike Bishop on Sun Aug 20, 2017 11:04 pm

19delta wrote:
Pike Bishop wrote:
19delta wrote:
Pike Bishop wrote:
19delta wrote:
Head Skin wrote:
19delta wrote:
Pike Bishop wrote:
19delta wrote:
BirdWatcher wrote:I favor removing statues of all racists...  lets start with the one who interred US Citizens based on their ethnicity and stole all their property...

The difference is that FDR, on balance, did good for far more people than to those he hurt (libertarian arguments against the New Deal aside).

It's a false equivalency. The leaders of the Confederacy not only considered other human beings to be their private property but also waged a desperate and destructive war, the deadliest in American history, to extend and protect that monstrous system.

So yes...I have no problem keeping the FDR Memorial but tearing down the memorials to Confederate leaders.
Robert E. Lee did many things for his country before the Civil War. Unfortunately he made the wrong choice at the outbreak of the Civil War. What I have read was his choice was based on not wanting to fight family and friends and loyalty to his home state of Virginia. I may be wrong but I have never read anything that his decision was based on the slave issue. He graduated at the top of his class at West Point. He help design and build a successful levee system that protected St. Louis from flooding. He served with distinction during the Mexican War. At Appomattox, instead of prolonging war by encouraging and leading his army in a guerilla war he surrendered and accepted the terms given to I'm by Grant. In the remaining years of his life, he did everything he could to reunite the country in a peaceful manner. It is also my understanding that he did not own  slaves (his wife did). He was a honorable man. I do understand that his decision and military ability was responsible for one of the darkest periods in our history. Thomas Jackson was also a non slave owner (his family was poor landowners from what is now West Virginia. He also taught slave children. Like Lee, he served with distinction in the Mexican War, and his military ability prolonged a bloody war for a bad cause. I know I am rambling, I do not support any of the violence that occurred at Charlotteville. I'm just a fan of destroying
history. What would be next?

And the fact that he led an army into a terrible war waged so other rich guys could keep owning people cancels all that good stuff out.
Thank God that doesn't happen today...

What point are you trying to make?
George Washington, led the Continental Army to victory during the War for Independence, stopped a military coup, walked away from power twice, strong leadership helped get the Constitution written, provided a positive model for future presidents, without him we would of had no country, slaveowner.
Thomas Jefferson, wrote the Declaration of Independence, help establish the concept of religious freedom, slaveowner. Al Sharpton wants his memorial torn down.
James Madison, wrote the Constitution, probably the greatest form of government devised, slaveowner.
Andrew Jackson, war hero, paid of the national debt, got the average guy involved in politics and government, stopped the first attempt of succession, slaveowner, responsible for the Trail of Tears in which Native Americans were deprived of their property and thousands died in their deportation.
Abraham Lincoln, gave his life to reunite the Union and to abolish slavery. He didn't feel Blacks were totally equal to whites. His Memorial was vandalized the other day.
U. S. Grant, military leadership defeated the Confederate army, fought the KKK, was our first civil rights president, his wife owned one slave, his administration was tainted in scandals.
William Sherman, broke the back of the Confederacy with his March to the Sea, wasn't racially enlightened, a military decision to burn some bridges to protect his army led to the death of many runaway slaves.
Teddy Roosevelt, war hero, built the Panama Canal, intergrated the Civil Service, invited and dined with a notable Black leader for the first time since the Civil War. Recently some group wants his statue removed from a museum because they feel he was a racist.
Woodrow Wilson, racist, segregated the Civil Service, kept the army segregated, lied to his country ("I will keep you out of the war"), in six months of combat, 100,000 American lives were lost in WWI.
FDR, led the country during the Depression and WWII, The New Deal, led the country with a physical disability, the New Deal programs excluded Black Americans, he supported segregationists and their policies
JFK, was "friendly" with many good looking women, fiscal conservative, stood up to communism, got us involved in Vietnam, turned his back on the Cubans trying to overthrow Castro at the Bay of Pigs, thousands of Cubans have lost their lives to the brutal dictatorship in the last 50 years.
LBJ, Civil Rights Act passed during his administration. Instituted the war on poverty, racist, supported racist policies for years, got us deeper into Vietnam, 54,000 plus Americans died.
Whose bad deeds out-weigh their good? Who makes that decision? Antifa? SJW's? BLM? KKK? Neo-Nazis? CAIR gets offended we remove memorials to our men and women who served fought and died in Afghanistan, Iraq, Somalia? I'm also a history guy. I just don't like seein it erased. Who's statue or memorial is next because someone doesn't like them or is offended? I guess that's my point.

I hear this over and over...that removing Confederate war memorials is an attempt to somehow "erase" the past. That is simply not what is happening. These memorials to honor men who served the cause of evil do not deserve to be displayed in public spaces, devoid of context. It's really that simply. Put all that stuff in a museum where it can be displayed within the proper context.

I guess due to my love of history I'm getting too bent out of shape about statues erected by a bunch of racist Democrats, being protected by fringe groups with racist Democratic or national socialist roots (no one claims or wants them now), who fight with groups that are Marxist and socialist and use tactics/act like/hate like the Nazis in Germany in the 1920's and 1930's. Antifa are the Nazis. We should put all of them in a cage match where they beat each other to death. We would be a better country. I can't wait for Antifa to go to Eygpt to demand the pyramids to be tore down, to Europe to rid it of every vestige of the ancient Roman Empire. Those things were also built by slave labor by civilizations that used slavery longer and to a greater extent than our country did.

Classic red herring argument.

I am done talking about Confederate monuments. You made some valid points. Robert E. Lee said erecting such monuments would cause problems and was against it.
Vandalizing a Lincoln memorial in Chicago and a Catholic Saint, Junipero Serro in California, a proposal of defunding and ultimately tearing down the Jefferson Memorial, "chiefing" the USC mascot, a white Arabian horse because its name Traveler, is the same as Lee's horse (minus one l) and represents white supremacy? Classic red herring argument? My argument the whole time has been who what is next?

Pike Bishop
Bee-otch

Posts : 91
Join date : 2016-04-11

Back to top Go down

Re: Charlottesville, VA.

Post by Teetime on Mon Aug 21, 2017 8:26 am

Head Skin wrote:Is it not true that this entire situation may not have escalated and perhaps not reached this focus on statues had these people shown up and introduced the fight to the situation?


I agree.

If the Nazis had stayed home, there would have been no trouble.


https://news.vice.com/story/vice-news-tonight-full-episode-charlottesville-race-and-terror

_________________
Donald J. Trump, he is my President now........sad!
avatar
Teetime
Admin

Posts : 5861
Join date : 2008-09-11
Location : Right across the street from net

Back to top Go down

Re: Charlottesville, VA.

Post by Head Skin on Mon Aug 21, 2017 3:15 pm

Teetime wrote:
Head Skin wrote:Is it not true that this entire situation may not have escalated and perhaps not reached this focus on statues had these people shown up and introduced the fight to the situation?


I agree.

If the Nazis had stayed home, there would have been no trouble.


https://news.vice.com/story/vice-news-tonight-full-episode-charlottesville-race-and-terror
True, but you can't pick and choose who has free speech and who doesn't based on mob mentality.
avatar
Head Skin
Legends of Bench

Posts : 8744
Join date : 2008-09-23
Age : 100
Location : Here

Back to top Go down

Re: Charlottesville, VA.

Post by Teetime on Mon Aug 21, 2017 5:50 pm

Head Skin wrote:True, but you can't pick and choose who has free speech and who doesn't based on mob mentality.


I agree again.




_________________
Donald J. Trump, he is my President now........sad!
avatar
Teetime
Admin

Posts : 5861
Join date : 2008-09-11
Location : Right across the street from net

Back to top Go down

Re: Charlottesville, VA.

Post by Head Skin on Tue Aug 22, 2017 10:01 pm

ESPN just pulled an announcer named Robert Lee from a Virginia college football game so they wouldn't offend anyone.

I mean, come the \"f\"ing on.

Oh, kicker is this- the announcer is Asian.
avatar
Head Skin
Legends of Bench

Posts : 8744
Join date : 2008-09-23
Age : 100
Location : Here

Back to top Go down

Re: Charlottesville, VA.

Post by Pike Bishop on Tue Aug 22, 2017 10:31 pm

Head Skin wrote:ESPN just pulled an announcer named Robert Lee from a Virginia college football game so they wouldn't offend anyone.

I mean, come the \"f\"ing on.

Oh, kicker is this- the announcer is Asian.
t

I read today that One group feels it is time to get rid of Colonel Sanders because it's racist. I showed a film in my Econ class, he was born in Kentucky after the Civil War, started out owning a gas station with a small restaurant atttached. There was no slavery involved.

Pike Bishop
Bee-otch

Posts : 91
Join date : 2016-04-11

Back to top Go down

Re: Charlottesville, VA.

Post by Pike Bishop on Tue Aug 22, 2017 10:39 pm

Teetime wrote:
Head Skin wrote:Is it not true that this entire situation may not have escalated and perhaps not reached this focus on statues had these people shown up and introduced the fight to the situation?


I agree.

If the Nazis had stayed home, there would have been no trouble.

Acoording to a reporter imbedded with them, the Nazis never mentioned the statue.They had a permit to march. However, there intentions were not to protest the statue but to stir up s$$t. The Antifa groups came to stir up an equal  amount of s$$t. I agree, but both groups should of stayed at home.
https://news.vice.com/story/vice-news-tonight-full-episode-charlottesville-race-and-terror

Pike Bishop
Bee-otch

Posts : 91
Join date : 2016-04-11

Back to top Go down

Re: Charlottesville, VA.

Post by Head Skin on Wed Aug 23, 2017 8:13 am

Isn't stirring up s$$t all people do anymore? Hell, this thread was created to stir up s $$t.
avatar
Head Skin
Legends of Bench

Posts : 8744
Join date : 2008-09-23
Age : 100
Location : Here

Back to top Go down

Re: Charlottesville, VA.

Post by 19delta on Wed Aug 23, 2017 9:36 pm

Head Skin wrote:ESPN just pulled an announcer named Robert Lee from a Virginia college football game so they wouldn't offend anyone.

I mean, come the \"f\"ing on.

Oh, kicker is this- the announcer is Asian.

He's really lucky. This way, he doesn't have to watch UVA football.
avatar
19delta
Kick Ass
Kick Ass

Posts : 3155
Join date : 2008-09-23

Back to top Go down

Re: Charlottesville, VA.

Post by 19delta on Wed Aug 23, 2017 9:45 pm

Head Skin wrote:
Teetime wrote:
Head Skin wrote:Is it not true that this entire situation may not have escalated and perhaps not reached this focus on statues had these people shown up and introduced the fight to the situation?


I agree.

If the Nazis had stayed home, there would have been no trouble.


https://news.vice.com/story/vice-news-tonight-full-episode-charlottesville-race-and-terror
True, but you can't pick and choose who has free speech and who doesn't based on mob mentality.

Teetime can't but apparently the the Governor or Virginia can:

http://reason.com/blog/2017/08/21/virginia-governor-responds-to-violence-w

Fvck you, Terry McAuliffe.
avatar
19delta
Kick Ass
Kick Ass

Posts : 3155
Join date : 2008-09-23

Back to top Go down

Re: Charlottesville, VA.

Post by Head Skin on Wed Aug 23, 2017 10:48 pm

So...he should just let more riots start?
avatar
Head Skin
Legends of Bench

Posts : 8744
Join date : 2008-09-23
Age : 100
Location : Here

Back to top Go down

Re: Charlottesville, VA.

Post by 19delta on Wed Aug 23, 2017 11:00 pm

Head Skin wrote:So...he should just let more riots start?

Yes. There needs to be more free speech, not less.
avatar
19delta
Kick Ass
Kick Ass

Posts : 3155
Join date : 2008-09-23

Back to top Go down

Re: Charlottesville, VA.

Post by Head Skin on Wed Aug 23, 2017 11:04 pm

Your right to free speech or any right, ends when it infringes on others' rights. I would imagine further riots would infringe on far more people's rights than those who want to protest on either side.
avatar
Head Skin
Legends of Bench

Posts : 8744
Join date : 2008-09-23
Age : 100
Location : Here

Back to top Go down

Re: Charlottesville, VA.

Post by Head Skin on Wed Aug 23, 2017 11:25 pm

I mean, this is sophomore Civics stuff. You can't just walk in a theater and scream fire because of your right to free speech.
avatar
Head Skin
Legends of Bench

Posts : 8744
Join date : 2008-09-23
Age : 100
Location : Here

Back to top Go down

Re: Charlottesville, VA.

Post by Teetime on Wed Aug 23, 2017 11:30 pm

Head Skin wrote:Isn't stirring up s$$t all people do anymore?  Hell, this thread was created to stir up s $$t.

I was interested in how this thread might evolve. I wondered if the race issued that were driving the events in Charlottesville might get discussed.

Is having a discussion about race stirring up shit? If so, I'm guilty.

I think discussing race is good for you. I think it's good for everyone.

_________________
Donald J. Trump, he is my President now........sad!
avatar
Teetime
Admin

Posts : 5861
Join date : 2008-09-11
Location : Right across the street from net

Back to top Go down

Re: Charlottesville, VA.

Post by Head Skin on Wed Aug 23, 2017 11:33 pm

I don't think we've discussed race at all. This has been 3 pages of talk about things having nothing to do with actual racial inequalities or racial issues.
avatar
Head Skin
Legends of Bench

Posts : 8744
Join date : 2008-09-23
Age : 100
Location : Here

Back to top Go down

Re: Charlottesville, VA.

Post by Teetime on Thu Aug 24, 2017 6:24 am

Exactly.

I brought up Charlottesville. I thought the discussion might head toward race. I hoped it would. It didn't. We talked about the Civil War and the honor or dishonor of the men who have statues.

Then we discussed free speech. God forbid.

You call that stirring up shit. I don't.

_________________
Donald J. Trump, he is my President now........sad!
avatar
Teetime
Admin

Posts : 5861
Join date : 2008-09-11
Location : Right across the street from net

Back to top Go down

Re: Charlottesville, VA.

Post by 19delta on Thu Aug 24, 2017 7:05 am

Head Skin wrote:Your right to free speech or any right, ends when it infringes on others' rights.  I would imagine further riots would infringe on far more people's rights than those who want to protest on either side.  

Have you ever read the First Amendment?

It doesn't say any of that.
avatar
19delta
Kick Ass
Kick Ass

Posts : 3155
Join date : 2008-09-23

Back to top Go down

Re: Charlottesville, VA.

Post by 19delta on Thu Aug 24, 2017 7:11 am

Head Skin wrote:I mean, this is sophomore Civics stuff.  You can't just walk in a theater and scream fire because of your right to free speech.

So you are equating controversial ideas with yelling "fire" in a crowded theater? So let's just give bureaucrats even more power to infringe on our rights? Is that what you are arguing in favor of?
avatar
19delta
Kick Ass
Kick Ass

Posts : 3155
Join date : 2008-09-23

Back to top Go down

Re: Charlottesville, VA.

Post by Head Skin on Thu Aug 24, 2017 7:51 am

That is how the Constitution works. When a smaller group of people exercising their rights infringes on the rights of a larger group of people, especially in the form of deadly riots, the smaller group of people no longer gets to exercise their rights.

How in the hell can you teach social studies and not realize that's how it works?
avatar
Head Skin
Legends of Bench

Posts : 8744
Join date : 2008-09-23
Age : 100
Location : Here

Back to top Go down

Re: Charlottesville, VA.

Post by Head Skin on Thu Aug 24, 2017 7:55 am

Teetime wrote:Exactly.

I brought up Charlottesville. I thought the discussion might head toward race. I hoped it would. It didn't. We talked about the Civil War and the honor or dishonor of the men who have statues.

Then we discussed free speech. God forbid.

You call that stirring up shit. I don't.
Bullshit.
avatar
Head Skin
Legends of Bench

Posts : 8744
Join date : 2008-09-23
Age : 100
Location : Here

Back to top Go down

Re: Charlottesville, VA.

Post by 19delta on Thu Aug 24, 2017 9:04 am

Head Skin wrote:That is how the Constitution works.  When a smaller group of people exercising their rights infringes on the rights of a larger group of people, especially in the form of deadly riots, the smaller group of people no longer gets to exercise their rights.

How in the hell can you teach social studies and not realize that's how it works?

No. You are wrong. That is PRECISELY what the Bill of Rights was written to defend against.

Do a google search on "tyranny of the majority."
avatar
19delta
Kick Ass
Kick Ass

Posts : 3155
Join date : 2008-09-23

Back to top Go down

Re: Charlottesville, VA.

Post by Head Skin on Thu Aug 24, 2017 10:32 am

From Wikipedia (ya, I know...)
Tyranny of the majority- refers to an inherent weakness of direct democracy and majority rule in which the majority of an electorate can place its own interests above, and at the expense of, those in the minority.
Well, your first problem is this country isn't a democracy, especially a direct one.
avatar
Head Skin
Legends of Bench

Posts : 8744
Join date : 2008-09-23
Age : 100
Location : Here

Back to top Go down

Re: Charlottesville, VA.

Post by 19delta on Thu Aug 24, 2017 12:54 pm

Head Skin wrote:From Wikipedia (ya, I know...)
Tyranny of the majority- refers to an inherent weakness of direct democracy and majority rule in which the of an electorate can place its own interests above, and at the expense of, those in the minority.
Well, your first problem is this country isn't a democracy, especially a direct one.

Go back and re-read your previous post. What you copied and pasted is what you advocated. The Bill of Rights specifically PROTECTS the rights of the minority from the will of the majority.
avatar
19delta
Kick Ass
Kick Ass

Posts : 3155
Join date : 2008-09-23

Back to top Go down

Re: Charlottesville, VA.

Post by Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

Page 3 of 4 Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next

View previous topic View next topic Back to top


 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum