Charlottesville, VA.

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Charlottesville, VA.

Post by Teetime on Tue Aug 15, 2017 7:41 pm

Is a beautiful city and the UVA campus is a great visit. You can also see lots of Thomas Jefferson historical information.

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Re: Charlottesville, VA.

Post by BirdWatcher on Tue Aug 15, 2017 8:45 pm

Tease...

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Re: Charlottesville, VA.

Post by Teetime on Tue Aug 15, 2017 10:14 pm

Very Happy

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Re: Charlottesville, VA.

Post by 19delta on Wed Aug 16, 2017 12:03 am

I also heard that the Charlottlesville memorial to General Robert E. Lee is quite a tourist attraction.
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Re: Charlottesville, VA.

Post by Teetime on Wed Aug 16, 2017 10:33 am

Lee was a loser. We like winners.

I posted this in May in another thread. It's too good to let it fade away. It's also relevant to this.....

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/05/we-cant-walk-away-from-this-truth/527721/

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Re: Charlottesville, VA.

Post by BirdWatcher on Wed Aug 16, 2017 12:22 pm

I favor removing statues of all racists... lets start with the one who interred US Citizens based on their ethnicity and stole all their property...

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Re: Charlottesville, VA.

Post by 19delta on Wed Aug 16, 2017 12:52 pm

BirdWatcher wrote:I favor removing statues of all racists...  lets start with the one who interred US Citizens based on their ethnicity and stole all their property...

The difference is that FDR, on balance, did good for far more people than to those he hurt (libertarian arguments against the New Deal aside).

It's a false equivalency. The leaders of the Confederacy not only considered other human beings to be their private property but also waged a desperate and destructive war, the deadliest in American history, to extend and protect that monstrous system.

So yes...I have no problem keeping the FDR Memorial but tearing down the memorials to Confederate leaders.
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Re: Charlottesville, VA.

Post by Pike Bishop on Wed Aug 16, 2017 7:59 pm

19delta wrote:
BirdWatcher wrote:I favor removing statues of all racists...  lets start with the one who interred US Citizens based on their ethnicity and stole all their property...

The difference is that FDR, on balance, did good for far more people than to those he hurt (libertarian arguments against the New Deal aside).

It's a false equivalency. The leaders of the Confederacy not only considered other human beings to be their private property but also waged a desperate and destructive war, the deadliest in American history, to extend and protect that monstrous system.

So yes...I have no problem keeping the FDR Memorial but tearing down the memorials to Confederate leaders.
Robert E. Lee did many things for his country before the Civil War. Unfortunately he made the wrong choice at the outbreak of the Civil War. What I have read was his choice was based on not wanting to fight family and friends and loyalty to his home state of Virginia. I may be wrong but I have never read anything that his decision was based on the slave issue. He graduated at the top of his class at West Point. He help design and build a successful levee system that protected St. Louis from flooding. He served with distinction during the Mexican War. At Appomattox, instead of prolonging war by encouraging and leading his army in a guerilla war he surrendered and accepted the terms given to I'm by Grant. In the remaining years of his life, he did everything he could to reunite the country in a peaceful manner. It is also my understanding that he did not own slaves (his wife did). He was a honorable man. I do understand that his decision and military ability was responsible for one of the darkest periods in our history. Thomas Jackson was also a non slave owner (his family was poor landowners from what is now West Virginia. He also taught slave children. Like Lee, he served with distinction in the Mexican War, and his military ability prolonged a bloody war for a bad cause. I know I am rambling, I do not support any of the violence that occurred at Charlotteville. I'm just a fan of destroying
history. What would be next?

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Re: Charlottesville, VA.

Post by Head Skin on Wed Aug 16, 2017 8:52 pm

You are correct Pike on both Lee and Jackson. Lee was particularly torn on which side to join. Ultimately his decision came down to defending his physical home and family. Which we have so respected already.

But, why let facts get in the way of painting everyone associated with the confederacy as a racist POS so you can push your own agenda?
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Re: Charlottesville, VA.

Post by 19delta on Wed Aug 16, 2017 9:28 pm

Pike Bishop wrote:
19delta wrote:
BirdWatcher wrote:I favor removing statues of all racists...  lets start with the one who interred US Citizens based on their ethnicity and stole all their property...

The difference is that FDR, on balance, did good for far more people than to those he hurt (libertarian arguments against the New Deal aside).

It's a false equivalency. The leaders of the Confederacy not only considered other human beings to be their private property but also waged a desperate and destructive war, the deadliest in American history, to extend and protect that monstrous system.

So yes...I have no problem keeping the FDR Memorial but tearing down the memorials to Confederate leaders.
Robert E. Lee did many things for his country before the Civil War. Unfortunately he made the wrong choice at the outbreak of the Civil War. What I have read was his choice was based on not wanting to fight family and friends and loyalty to his home state of Virginia. I may be wrong but I have never read anything that his decision was based on the slave issue. He graduated at the top of his class at West Point. He help design and build a successful levee system that protected St. Louis from flooding. He served with distinction during the Mexican War. At Appomattox, instead of prolonging war by encouraging and leading his army in a guerilla war he surrendered and accepted the terms given to I'm by Grant. In the remaining years of his life, he did everything he could to reunite the country in a peaceful manner. It is also my understanding that he did not own  slaves (his wife did). He was a honorable man. I do understand that his decision and military ability was responsible for one of the darkest periods in our history. Thomas Jackson was also a non slave owner (his family was poor landowners from what is now West Virginia. He also taught slave children. Like Lee, he served with distinction in the Mexican War, and his military ability prolonged a bloody war for a bad cause. I know I am rambling, I do not support any of the violence that occurred at Charlotteville. I'm just a fan of destroying
history. What would be next?

And the fact that he led an army into a terrible war waged so other rich guys could keep owning people cancels all that good stuff out.


Last edited by 19delta on Wed Aug 16, 2017 10:04 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Charlottesville, VA.

Post by 19delta on Wed Aug 16, 2017 10:03 pm

Head Skin wrote:You are correct Pike on both Lee and Jackson.  Lee was particularly torn on which side to join.  Ultimately his decision came down to defending his physical home and family.  Which we have so respected already.

But, why let facts get in the way of painting everyone associated with the confederacy as a racist POS so you can push your own agenda?

You have to be kidding. You do know when (and why) almost all of those Confederate statues were erected, correct?

Pushing an agenda, indeed.

Rolling Eyes
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Re: Charlottesville, VA.

Post by Teetime on Wed Aug 16, 2017 10:15 pm

So now is the time to come together and heal and focus on our larger task. Not only building new symbols, but making this city a beautiful manifestation of what is possible and what we as a people can become.

Let us remember what the once exiled, imprisoned and now universally loved Nelson Mandela and what he said after the fall of apartheid.

“If the pain has often been unbearable and the revelations shocking to all of us, it is because they indeed bring us the beginnings of a common understanding of what happened and a steady restoration of the nation's humanity.”

So before we part let us again state the truth clearly.

The Confederacy was on the wrong side of history and humanity. It sought to tear apart our nation and subjugate our fellow Americans to slavery. This is the history we should never forget and one that we should never again put on a pedestal to be revered.

As a community, we must recognize the significance of removing New Orleans’ Confederate monuments. It is our acknowledgment that now is the time to take stock of, and then move past, a painful part of our history.

Anything less would render generations of courageous struggle and soul-searching a truly lost cause.

Anything less would fall short of the immortal words of our greatest President Abraham Lincoln, who with an open heart and clarity of purpose calls on us today to unite as one people when he said:

“With malice toward none, with charity for all; with firmness in the right, as God gives us to see the right; let us strive on to finish the work we are in, to bind up the nation's wounds … to do all which may achieve and cherish—a just and lasting peace among ourselves and with all nations.”

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Re: Charlottesville, VA.

Post by Head Skin on Wed Aug 16, 2017 10:27 pm

19delta wrote:
Head Skin wrote:You are correct Pike on both Lee and Jackson.  Lee was particularly torn on which side to join.  Ultimately his decision came down to defending his physical home and family.  Which we have so respected already.

But, why let facts get in the way of painting everyone associated with the confederacy as a racist POS so you can push your own agenda?

You have to be kidding. You do know when (and why) almost all of those Confederate statues were erected, correct?

Pushing an agenda, indeed.

Rolling Eyes
I'm not making any comments whatsoever on monuments. I am saying that to brush anyone associated with the Confederacy as a racist bent on preserving slavery is historically ignorant.

It's trying to fit a contemporary agenda onto a complex historical issue. Akin to calling everyone in the German military in WW II a die hard Nazi. It's not that simple. Especially in the case of Lee.
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Re: Charlottesville, VA.

Post by Head Skin on Wed Aug 16, 2017 10:28 pm

19delta wrote:
Pike Bishop wrote:
19delta wrote:
BirdWatcher wrote:I favor removing statues of all racists...  lets start with the one who interred US Citizens based on their ethnicity and stole all their property...

The difference is that FDR, on balance, did good for far more people than to those he hurt (libertarian arguments against the New Deal aside).

It's a false equivalency. The leaders of the Confederacy not only considered other human beings to be their private property but also waged a desperate and destructive war, the deadliest in American history, to extend and protect that monstrous system.

So yes...I have no problem keeping the FDR Memorial but tearing down the memorials to Confederate leaders.
Robert E. Lee did many things for his country before the Civil War. Unfortunately he made the wrong choice at the outbreak of the Civil War. What I have read was his choice was based on not wanting to fight family and friends and loyalty to his home state of Virginia. I may be wrong but I have never read anything that his decision was based on the slave issue. He graduated at the top of his class at West Point. He help design and build a successful levee system that protected St. Louis from flooding. He served with distinction during the Mexican War. At Appomattox, instead of prolonging war by encouraging and leading his army in a guerilla war he surrendered and accepted the terms given to I'm by Grant. In the remaining years of his life, he did everything he could to reunite the country in a peaceful manner. It is also my understanding that he did not own  slaves (his wife did). He was a honorable man. I do understand that his decision and military ability was responsible for one of the darkest periods in our history. Thomas Jackson was also a non slave owner (his family was poor landowners from what is now West Virginia. He also taught slave children. Like Lee, he served with distinction in the Mexican War, and his military ability prolonged a bloody war for a bad cause. I know I am rambling, I do not support any of the violence that occurred at Charlotteville. I'm just a fan of destroying
history. What would be next?

And the fact that he led an army into a terrible war waged so other rich guys could keep owning people cancels all that good stuff out.
Thank God that doesn't happen today...
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Re: Charlottesville, VA.

Post by 19delta on Wed Aug 16, 2017 10:43 pm

Head Skin wrote:
19delta wrote:
Head Skin wrote:You are correct Pike on both Lee and Jackson.  Lee was particularly torn on which side to join.  Ultimately his decision came down to defending his physical home and family.  Which we have so respected already.

But, why let facts get in the way of painting everyone associated with the confederacy as a racist POS so you can push your own agenda?

You have to be kidding. You do know when (and why) almost all of those Confederate statues were erected, correct?

Pushing an agenda, indeed.

Rolling Eyes
I'm not making any comments whatsoever on monuments.  I am saying that to brush anyone associated with the Confederacy as a racist bent on preserving slavery is historically ignorant.

It's trying to fit a contemporary agenda onto a complex historical issue.  Akin to calling everyone in the German military in WW II a die hard Nazi.  It's not that simple.  Especially in the case of Lee.

It is simple with Lee.

He resigned his US commission and accepted command of the largest, best equipped, and most capable Confederate army. An army that inflicted massive casualties on the Union armies that, at least after January 1st, 1863 were fighting a crusade to liberate a long oppressed people.

Lee was one of the leaders of the Confederate war effort. His considerable battlefield acumen, harnessed to support the goals of a brutal system that was built on human bondage, made the war especially deadly.

You can possibly make a case for poor faceless Southern men who really had no choice but to fight, either due to cultural pressure or conscription. But the political and military leaders of the South who plunged this country into the most destructive conflict in American history and then prolonged the bloodshed deserve nothing more than contempt.
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Re: Charlottesville, VA.

Post by Head Skin on Wed Aug 16, 2017 10:49 pm

So, anyone in a command position in WW II Germany deserves the same level of scorn as Adolf Hitler?

Erwin Rommel for example?
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Re: Charlottesville, VA.

Post by BirdWatcher on Wed Aug 16, 2017 11:07 pm

19delta wrote:.....people cancels all that good stuff out.

And the fact that FDR put US citizens in concentration camps cancels out all his good stuff, yes?

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Re: Charlottesville, VA.

Post by Pike Bishop on Wed Aug 16, 2017 11:18 pm

Head Skin wrote:
19delta wrote:
Head Skin wrote:You are correct Pike on both Lee and Jackson.  Lee was particularly torn on which side to join.  Ultimately his decision came down to defending his physical home and family.  Which we have so respected already.

But, why let facts get in the way of painting everyone associated with the confederacy as a racist POS so you can push your own agenda?

You have to be kidding. You do know when (and why) almost all of those Confederate statues were erected, correct?

Pushing an agenda, indeed.

Rolling Eyes
I'm not making any comments whatsoever on monuments.  I am saying that to brush anyone associated with the Confederacy as a racist bent on preserving slavery is historically ignorant.

It's trying to fit a contemporary agenda onto a complex historical issue.  Akin to calling everyone in the German military in WW II a die hard Nazi.  It's not that simple.  Especially in the case of Lee.
Do all Republicans support the KKK and the neo-Nazi groups?
Do all Democrats belong and support the Antifa groups?
Do all Black Americans belong and support Black Lives Matter?
There were Union soldiers who didn't support the ending of slavery and/or emancipation. The fought and died for it rather they realized it or not.
Many Southern soldiers didn't own slaves and didn't fight to protect slavery but fought and died so a small number of people could keep slavery whether they realized it or not.

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Re: Charlottesville, VA.

Post by Teetime on Wed Aug 16, 2017 11:28 pm

Robert E Lee was a smart man that took up arms against the United States of America. He did so knowingly. It doesn't matter if it was with a degree of reluctance.

There is no comparing that to FDR. There is no moral or legal equivalency.

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Re: Charlottesville, VA.

Post by Doctor D on Wed Aug 16, 2017 11:40 pm

Turned this place into Facebook. Way to go.

I'm willing to bet that nobody here is gonna change their political views based on some back and forth on a message board.
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Re: Charlottesville, VA.

Post by Head Skin on Wed Aug 16, 2017 11:44 pm

Teetime wrote:Robert E Lee was a smart man that took up arms against the United States of America. He did so knowingly. It doesn't matter if it was with a degree of reluctance.

There is no comparing that to FDR. There is no moral or legal equivalency.
What, and bear with me here, if the US is the bad guy?

Not saying the confederacy is right, but taking up arms against the US government isn't exactly a cut and dried issue. Had we lost the Revolution you'd likely condemn people like George Washington. Slavery is used in it's modern context as if it is some trump card when deing with the Civil War, but for some it was a more complex issue than that.

There are many in this country fighting for exactly the same things- freedom from excessive taxes and tyranny- as the colonists, but are vilified because the government is the ones righting the sides. History, is not viewed easily through the modern eye. It's not as simple as you guys seem to make it.

For a lot of Confederates it wasn't as black and white as fight for slavery or against it. It just wasn't. No matter what modern ideology you want to attach to it, that's not the reality of some of their decisions. For some, it was a fight for slavery or against. For a great many slavery had nothing to do with their decisions on which side to fight for.
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Re: Charlottesville, VA.

Post by Head Skin on Wed Aug 16, 2017 11:45 pm

Doctor D wrote:Turned this place into Facebook. Way to go.

I'm willing to bet that nobody here is gonna change their political views based on some back and forth on a message board.
I agree, but as a history guy, people trying to erase or rewrite history to fit some modern narrative is a pet peeve of mine.  It's just not how it works.

Besides, sorry to distract you from the whole bunch of nothing else going on.
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Re: Charlottesville, VA.

Post by Teetime on Wed Aug 16, 2017 11:46 pm

Political views?

I thought were talking about moral views, and history.

Did anyone mention politics?

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Re: Charlottesville, VA.

Post by Teetime on Wed Aug 16, 2017 11:50 pm

Head Skin wrote:
Teetime wrote:Robert E Lee was a smart man that took up arms against the United States of America. He did so knowingly. It doesn't matter if it was with a degree of reluctance.

There is no comparing that to FDR. There is no moral or legal equivalency.
What, and bear with me here, if the US is the bad guy?

Not saying the confederacy is right, but taking up arms against the US government isn't exactly a cut and dried issue.  Had we lost the Revolution you'd likely condemn people like George Washington.  Slavery is used in it's modern context as if it is some trump card when deing with the Civil War, but for some it was a more complex issue than that.

There are many in this country fighting for exactly the same things- freedom from excessive taxes and tyranny- as the colonists, but are vilified because the government is the ones righting the sides.  History, is not viewed easily through the modern eye.  It's not as simple as you guys seem to make it.

For a lot of Confederates it wasn't as black and white as fight for slavery or against it.  It just wasn't.  No matter what modern ideology you want to attach to it, that's not the reality of some of their decisions.  For some, it was a fight for slavery or against.  For a great many slavery had nothing to do with their decisions on which side to fight for.

I didn't mention slavery. The man took up arms against our country and killed American patriots. He didn't do it because his taxes were too high.

You don't need to know anything else.

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Re: Charlottesville, VA.

Post by Doctor D on Thu Aug 17, 2017 12:00 am

Head Skin wrote:
Doctor D wrote:Turned this place into Facebook. Way to go.

I'm willing to bet that nobody here is gonna change their political views based on some back and forth on a message board.
I agree, but as a history guy, people trying to erase or rewrite history to fit some modern narrative is a pet peeve of mine.  It's just not how it works.

Besides,  sorry to distract you from the whole bunch of nothing else going on.

Some interesting and salient points brought up here, by both "sides" of the discussion. I just feel like you guys are wasting your time. Might as well argue about private vs. public while you're at it.

Carry on.
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