Trump Care

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Re: Trump Care

Post by Teetime on Mon Jul 31, 2017 3:03 pm

ramblinman wrote:Why address it when the top court said it WAS a tax (thanks, in part, to the WH Solicitor General arguing that it was)?  Furthermore, the national debate on the ACA was conducted primarily in the halls of congress, on the stump, and in the media, and less so in the lower courts.  It was during that national debate that the administration and other ACA apologists were claiming it was not a tax.

And they would have kept claiming it was not a tax and would still be claiming that it was not a tax except that they wanted the court to rule on it during our lifetime.

ramblinman wrote: A main concept of Obamacare is that people who CAN'T get a compliant health insurance policy because they don't have a job, or their job doesn't offer that benefit, MUST have insurance of some kind.  That's what the individual mandate is all about.  If you can't get insured through your employer, you must purchase a policy on the open exchange, OR be taxed for it through your federal income taxes.

Well, that's a part of it. The actual outcome that was expected and came to fruition is that if you didn't have a job, or earned very low wages you just had to show enough initiative to sign up. Your premiums were either covered in full or in part. Nobody has to pay any more than 8% or 9% of their take-home pay.....but 0% if the take-home pay is less than 200% of the poverty level. (I may be a little off in those percentages, it's been a while since I studied-up)

Ramblinman wrote:Really?  You see no difference between receiving a moving violation for not carrying auto insurance (which, by the way, is not a federal law) and automatically being taxed by the federal government through your income taxes for not carrying health insurance?

What's the difference? A fine is a fine no matter if its issued by the City Police, the Gaming Warden, the Dept. of Revenue or the IRS. In both cases insurance is being required because we owe that obligation to our fellow citizens. If we don't get a policy then society as a whole ends up footing our bill. I realize that we are footing the bill for the poor anyway with the subsidized health insurance, but the guy that can afford a policy and chooses to foist his medical costs onto the rest of us is still rightfully fined.

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Re: Trump Care

Post by ramblinman on Mon Jul 31, 2017 3:28 pm

Teetime wrote:And they would have kept claiming it was not a tax and would still be claiming that it was not a tax except that they wanted the court to rule on it during our lifetime.

Who's they?  The administration?  

And here I thought that it was the National Federation of Independent Business that was the plaintiff in the case that made it to the SCOTUS.  

Teetime wrote:Well, that's a part of it. The actual outcome that was expected and came to fruition is that if you didn't have a job, or earned very low wages you just had to show enough initiative to sign up. Your premiums were either covered in full or in part. Nobody has to pay any more than 8% or 9% of their take-home pay.....but 0% if the take-home pay is less than 200% of the poverty level. (I may be a little off in those percentages, it's been a while since I studied-up)

Thought the law was you either are insured or have to pay the higher of 2.5% of AGI or $695 through your federal income tax.  

Teetime wrote:What's the difference? A fine is a fine no matter if its issued by the City Police, the Gaming Warden, the Dept. of Revenue or the IRS.

City police can issue me a ticket for not having auto insurance, and I will get fined.  If I opt not to have a car, I don't need auto insurance.  There's no fine for not having auto insurance if I don't own a car.

I can't opt not to have health insurance.  If I do, I get taxed.
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Re: Trump Care

Post by Head Skin on Mon Jul 31, 2017 3:34 pm

Teetime wrote:
Head Skin wrote:Their problem lies in the fact that most Americans don't like most of their policies.


Right!

Except for:
Environmental Protection
Consumer Protection
Universal Health Care
Medicare
Medicaid
Social Security
Equal Rights
Voting Rights
Minimum Wage
Privacy Rights

Based on a poll conducted in 2014, Gallup found that 30% of Americans identified as Democrats, 23% as Republicans, and 45% as Independents. In the same poll, a survey of registered voters stated that 47% identified as Democrats or leaned towards the party; the same poll found that 40% of registered voters identified as Republicans or leaned towards the Republican party.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_Party_(United_States)

Oh ya, that must be why they've done so well in the past couple elections, because their policies are so well received. Thanks for clearing that up for me.
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Re: Trump Care

Post by Teetime on Mon Jul 31, 2017 3:56 pm

ramblinman wrote:Who's they?  The administration?  

And here I thought that it was the National Federation of Independent Business that was the plaintiff in the case that made it to the SCOTUS.

Yes. The administration. The admin argued in the lower courts that it was a fine...and judges agreed. The administration switched their argument before the supreme court because they saw that position would cause the supreme court to not issue an opinion until someone who had actually been fined brought a case (with standing). The switch in position was made to affect a decision on the case ASAP.

ramblinman wrote:Thought the law was you either are insured or have to pay the higher of 2.5% of AGI or $695 through your federal income tax.

It is, but if you are poor....insurance costs you NOTHING. That's also part of the law. Generally speaking, those paying the fines are capable of paying at least a part of the premium if not the entire premium. There are exceptions to the fine for several reasons including inability to pay the premiums.

ramblinman wrote:City police can issue me a ticket for not having auto insurance, and I will get fined.  If I opt not to have a car, I don't need auto insurance.  There's no fine for not having auto insurance if I don't own a car.

I can't opt not to have health insurance.  If I do, I get taxed.

And no fine for not having health insurance if you can't afford it. You have to prove that inability to pay. If you can't afford car insurance, you still get fined for not having it (if you posses a car).

This is the part I don't understand about your position. You were in favor of the ACA provisions (including the fine for not having a compliant policy)....but call that a tax instead of a fine and you think the whole thing is a sham. It's six, one-half dozen or the other. The administration wanted a decision quickly, not two years later, so they called it a tax. We can all call it a fine now, the supreme court has decided.


Last edited by Teetime on Mon Jul 31, 2017 5:07 pm; edited 2 times in total

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Re: Trump Care

Post by Teetime on Mon Jul 31, 2017 4:01 pm

Head Skin wrote:
Teetime wrote:
Head Skin wrote:Their problem lies in the fact that most Americans don't like most of their policies.


Right!

Except for:
Environmental Protection
Consumer Protection
Universal Health Care
Medicare
Medicaid
Social Security
Equal Rights
Voting Rights
Minimum Wage
Privacy Rights

Based on a poll conducted in 2014, Gallup found that 30% of Americans identified as Democrats, 23% as Republicans, and 45% as Independents. In the same poll, a survey of registered voters stated that 47% identified as Democrats or leaned towards the party; the same poll found that 40% of registered voters identified as Republicans or leaned towards the Republican party.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_Party_(United_States)

Oh ya, that must be why they've done so well in the past couple elections, because their policies are so well received.  Thanks for clearing that up for me.

Well, last fall the democrats picked up seats in the US Senate, the US House and got almost three million MORE Americans to vote for their awful presidential candidate that did the republicans and their awful candidate. Remember...you are talking about policies that AMERICANS like, not electors in the electoral college.

So ya! Pretty well received.

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Re: Trump Care

Post by Head Skin on Mon Jul 31, 2017 8:05 pm

You're aware that not a single elector went against their state's vote and voted for Trump right? Or do you just not understand the electoral college?
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Re: Trump Care

Post by Head Skin on Mon Jul 31, 2017 8:09 pm

I mean this map should pretty accurately show why the founders instituted the college.  If 10 metropolitan areas can totally over run the other 80% of the country, do you really have a country?

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Re: Trump Care

Post by Teetime on Mon Jul 31, 2017 10:07 pm

Head Skin wrote:You're aware that not a single elector went against their state's vote and voted for Trump right?  Or do you just not understand the electoral college?

We weren't talking about electors.....you said "Americans don't like their policies".

We were talking about Americans. They voted for Hillary and the democrats despite her criminal behavior. Almost 3,000,000 more of them did anyway.

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Re: Trump Care

Post by Teetime on Mon Jul 31, 2017 10:11 pm

Head Skin wrote:I mean this map should pretty accurately show why the founders instituted the college.  If 10 metropolitan areas can totally over run the other 80% of the country, do you really have a country?

Yes you do.

If 3,000,000 FEWER Americans (no matter how much area they occupy) can elect a President you also still have a country.....it's just a messed up one.

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Re: Trump Care

Post by BirdWatcher on Mon Jul 31, 2017 10:22 pm

Democrats lost over 1000 state and federal posts since the inception of ObamaCare. Was every race a referendum on OCare? No, but I bet a bunch were.....

Personally, ObamaCare hasn't affected me at all. But I feel sorry for my buddy who's job was cut back to 32 hours (from 40) so his employer could avoid ObamaCare. I feel sorry for my neighbor whose premium doubled. Makes Arizona's measly 132% increase seem tiny....

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Re: Trump Care

Post by Teetime on Mon Jul 31, 2017 10:49 pm

You realize a 132% increase is MORE than a double (100% increase)?

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Re: Trump Care

Post by BirdWatcher on Mon Jul 31, 2017 11:35 pm

Teetime wrote:You realize a 132% increase is MORE than a double (100% increase)?

Of course. It all depends how you phrase it. When someone's premium doubles, it's 200% of what it once was, but only a 100% increase. I didn't realize that Arizona's premiums were that bad....

My poor neighbor had a measly 100% "increase." Arizona wins.

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Re: Trump Care

Post by ramblinman on Tue Aug 01, 2017 11:33 am

Teetime wrote:You were in favor of the ACA provisions (including the fine for not having a compliant policy)....but call that a tax instead of a fine and you think the whole thing is a sham. It's six, one-half dozen or the other.

The whole ACA isn't a sham.  From an access to care standpoint, it's better than before, but it still falls short of the universal healthcare that I think we should have.

What pissed me off was the process.  I felt like it was total bait and switch.  Deny every which way that it's a tax during the national debate in order to influence public opinion and congressional votes.  After the bill passes and in arguments made before the SCOTUS, admit that it's a tax when the constitutionality of the law and its individual mandate is in question.

Give me and all my fellow citizens unfettered access to excellent healthcare that a great nation like ours deserves. Tax me, don't fine me, for that. In exchange, get rid of healthcare insurance, with its premiums and runaround that are enormous pains in my assholes.





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Re: Trump Care

Post by Teetime on Tue Aug 01, 2017 6:42 pm

ramblinman wrote:Give me and all my fellow citizens unfettered access to excellent healthcare that a great nation like ours deserves.  Tax me, don't fine me, for that.  In exchange, get rid of healthcare insurance, with its premiums and runaround that are enormous pains in my assholes.


I could not agree more.

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