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Trump Care

Post by Teetime on Tue Jul 04, 2017 4:23 pm

http://www.miamiherald.com/opinion/opn-columns-blogs/carl-hiaasen/article159184184.html

I have nothing to add.

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Re: Trump Care

Post by BirdWatcher on Tue Jul 04, 2017 4:49 pm

ObamaCare added taxes. Repealing ObamaCare means repealing those taxes.

If you wanna jab the rich, change the tax code and jab the rich....

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Re: Trump Care

Post by Teetime on Tue Jul 04, 2017 9:45 pm

BirdWatcher wrote:ObamaCare added taxes.  Repealing ObamaCare means repealing those taxes.

If you wanna jab the rich, change the tax code and jab the rich....

I don't want to jab the rich......but the tax code was changed to add the Obamacare taxes.

Do you want to screw the poor? I don't think you do.

I'm pretty sure that the leaders of the Republican Party would much rather screw the people on Medicaid than report back to their masters that the taxes will have to stay in place. That would be unthinkable.

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Re: Trump Care

Post by Teetime on Wed Jul 26, 2017 4:32 pm

I remember when the ACA (Obamacare) passed there were those on this site parroting the FOX news line that it was being "shoved down our throats".

This is the truth:

Affordable Care Act

The ACA made it out of committee in the House of Representatives in July 2009, after a month-long markup and 160 Republican amendments. The House didn’t vote on it until November 7th.

In 2010, the Senate health committee spent nearly 60 hours over the course of 13 days marking up the legislation that would become the ACA.
The Senate Finance Committee held 53 meetings about the ACA and an eight-day markup of the bill, which was the longest markup for the committee in over 20 years. The committee considered 130 amendments and held 79 roll-call votes.
There were 44 hearings and public events about the plan in the Senate alone.
The bill was signed into law in March 2010, 8 months after it emerged from committee in the House.

American Health Care Act of 2017

For the AHCA, the two House committees conducted markups of the bills simultaneously. Representatives voted within 48 hours of the bill’s release to the public — before seeing a CBO report.

Republicans in the 2017 Congress positioned the healthcare legislation as a reconciliation bill, limiting the total possible debate in the Senate for the AHCA to 20 hours. That is, if any public debate occurs.

Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell and other Republican leadership don’t seem to have plans to bring the conversation into the public eye.
“Look, we’ve been dealing with this issue for seven years,” McConnell said earlier this month, noting that there had been "gazillions of hearings on this subject."
The Senate’s version of the AHCA passed by the House is being crafted by just 13 Republicans. There have been no markups by committees and no meetings with representatives across the aisle.

Members of Congress from both parties are alarmed at the lack of transparency."Seems like around here, the last step is getting information, which doesn’t seem to be necessarily the most effective process,” said Sen. Ron Johnson (R-WI).


http://fortune.com/2017/06/27/ahca-less-public-debate-than-aca/


This one really is getting shoved down our throats.

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Re: Trump Care

Post by ramblinman on Wed Jul 26, 2017 9:19 pm

Teetime wrote:I remember when the ACA (Obamacare) passed there were those on this site parroting the FOX news line that it was being "shoved down our throats".

This is the truth:

Affordable Care Act

[i]The ACA made it out of committee in the House of Representatives in July 2009, after a month-long markup and 160 Republican amendments. The House didn’t vote on it until November 7th.

In 2010, the Senate health committee spent nearly 60 hours over the course of 13 days marking up the legislation that would become the ACA.
The Senate Finance Committee held 53 meetings about the ACA and an eight-day markup of the bill, which was the longest markup for the committee in over 20 years. The committee considered 130 amendments and held 79 roll-call votes.
There were 44 hearings and public events about the plan in the Senate alone.
The bill was signed into law in March 2010, 8 months after it emerged from committee in the House..

You forgot about the part where the Supreme Court upheld the ACA based on their split decision opinion that Congress has the right to tax the people and that mandating that individuals purchase insurance (if they were not provided same through their workplace or Medicare) was really a form of taxation.  

Up until that point, the White House never used the T word to describe how people would purchase insurance in market.  Indeed, the White House and Congressional Dem leaders swore up and down that paying for the ACA would not result in tax increases.  The White House Budget Director, just a couple of months before the Supreme Court decision, and well after the ACA was signed into law, claimed that the individual mandate was not a tax.

I was in favor of the ACA up until the time that the case got into the Supreme Court.  At that time, the White House lawyers pulled the old switcheroo and argued that the individual mandate portion of the ACA was constitutional because it was essentially a tax.  It was contradictory at best and deceitful at worst.
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Re: Trump Care

Post by Teetime on Thu Jul 27, 2017 12:05 pm

I have seen your opinion about that here before....I don't get it.

You were OK with all of the provisions of the ACA, including the mandate that everyone must buy a compliant policy or pay a "penalty", but if that "penalty" were called a "tax" you were opposed to the entire ACA? I really don't understand that at all.

You seem to think that the Supreme Court said that the payment of the insurance premiums was a tax....they did not say that. The court said it mattered not what the administration was calling the penalty, it was a tax. The Obama administration argued that point to the court but everyone that was facing paying more on their 1040 form if they didn't have insurance (the penalty/tax) knew what that was.

You seem to think that the administration said the ACA would not result in tax increases...that's just not correct. They always said there would be a medical device tax, and they always said that those with incomes above $250,000 (for couples, and $200,000 for individuals) would pay an additional tax, those tax increases were never hidden.

The point I was making was that republicans and democrats debated the ACA and amended the ACA. Before the final vote in the House on March 23rd 2010 everyone had from December 24th 2009 when it was passed by the Senate (with 60 votes) to read and understand what the provisions were. Today there will be votes on a bill that only a handful of Senators have seen and that has not been scored by the CBO nor ruled on by the Senate Parliamentarian. This one really might be "shoved down our throats".

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Re: Trump Care

Post by ramblinman on Thu Jul 27, 2017 1:02 pm

I was in favor of anything that would improve access to healthcare, and I felt that the ACA was a good step in that direction.    

In the run up to the congressional voting, and even after it, the administration claimed every which way that the individual mandate was not a tax.  Once the challenge to the law was being litigated in the Supreme Court, the White House Solicitor General did an about face and argued it was a tax.

Read this:  When is a tax not a tax?  

That this is acceptable to critically thinking and fair minded people or that the end justifies the means is baffling to me.  

If the administration had called it a tax from day one of the national debate, I would have still been in favor of the ACA.  The fact that they avoided calling it a tax at every opportunity, and then changed their tune when it suited them, made me change my tune in terms of my support.  If you think that this is an inconsequential point, I say you are kidding yourself.  The ACA passed DESPITE most national polls that suggested that a slim majority of Americans were against the bill as a whole.  What would those polls have said if the administration had been straightforward from the beginning and just called it a tax (as they did AFTER the bill was passed)?  As I have said, I would have still been in favor of it, but I doubt the rest of the country would have been.  Indeed, I think that even more Americans would be been against it if they had been told it represented a new tax.

Telling Americans what they wanted to hear (that it wasn't a tax) during our national debate about the ACA, served to influence those polls and the legislators who voted for the bill.  Pulling the old switcheroo at the last minute (at a time when many legal experts were thinking that the Supreme Court was going to label the individual mandate as unconstitutional) and calling it a tax is just slimy anyway you want to look at it.

The end does NOT justify the means.
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Re: Trump Care

Post by Head Skin on Thu Jul 27, 2017 3:18 pm

Illinois:
2013 Monthly Premium: $248
2017 Monthly Premium: $517
Increase ⬆108%
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Re: Trump Care

Post by Teetime on Thu Jul 27, 2017 3:26 pm

The New York Times article you asked me to read was enlightening.
In part, it said these things about the Obama Administration's position:


The many district court judges who heard various challenges to the health care law typically ruled that the insurance mandate was not a tax and that the Anti-Injunction Act therefore did not prohibit a constitutional challenge. That position was taken both by judges who upheld the constitutionality of the insurance mandate and by those, like Judges Vinson and Hudson, who struck it down.

“By my count,” he wrote, “the executive branch told 10 separate district courts that the Anti-Injunction Act barred these cases.” The administration later changed its mind, he noted, “presumably because of an understandable policy desire to have courts resolve the constitutional question about the individual mandate sooner rather than later.”


It appears as though the administration's desire was to get a ruling from the Supreme Court during the first Obama term and not have the issue drug out by the Anti-Injunction Act. Almost all of the judges that heard the case in lower courts agreed with the administration's assertion that the penalty was not a tax. That assertion would have delayed a ruling by the high court, so the administration changed it's position to affect a quicker ruling. That seems innocent enough.

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Re: Trump Care

Post by Teetime on Thu Jul 27, 2017 3:46 pm

Head Skin wrote:Illinois:
2013 Monthly Premium: $248
2017 Monthly Premium: $517
Increase ⬆108%


When you say "Illinois", do you mean "State of Illinois Employees" or do you mean the average of all the insurance policies of all the insured in the State of Illinois?

Or do you mean Head Skin's family insurance costs?

Here are the rates paid by District 186 (Springfield) teachers and as you can see, the rate paid by the employee is directly affected by the amount of the premium that the employer pays as a benefit. If you are just quoting your share of the premium....how much was the district's share during that time frame?

http://www.sps186.org/downloads/attachments/50138/INSURANCE%20RATES%20%20Effective%20JUNE%201.pdf

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Re: Trump Care

Post by Head Skin on Thu Jul 27, 2017 6:46 pm

Idk. Saw it on Tweeter and thought I'd share. Nothing more.
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Re: Trump Care

Post by Teetime on Thu Jul 27, 2017 7:12 pm

Head Skin wrote:Idk.  Saw it on Tweeter and thought I'd share.  Nothing more.

Oh.

Well thanks. That was very helpful.

Those rates you cited seemed pretty cheap to me. The Dist. 186 rates are $666.92 for a single person ($8,003.04 per year) and $1,487.22 for a family ($17,846.64 per year).

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Re: Trump Care

Post by BirdWatcher on Thu Jul 27, 2017 7:48 pm

I predict that by the end of Trump's second term there will be a national, universal basic health program that covers a yearly doctor's exam, immunizations, emergency care, etc. Similar to Australia's. And employers or citizens will have the option to purchase -- across state lines -- any plan above and beyond the basic national plan. And that you'll be able to purchase your prescriptions from Canada or wherever has the best price.

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Re: Trump Care

Post by Teetime on Thu Jul 27, 2017 9:36 pm

BirdWatcher wrote:I predict that by the end of Trump's second term there will be a national, universal basic health program that covers a yearly doctor's exam, immunizations, emergency care, etc.  Similar to Australia's.   And employers or citizens will have the option to purchase -- across state lines -- any plan above and beyond the basic national plan.  And that you'll be able to purchase your prescriptions from Canada or wherever has the best price.

Sweet!

Then, with 63 senators and 295 house reps the democrats will put in universal care. It's really inevitable. Health care costs just keep spiraling upward and Universal care will apply the brakes.

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Re: Trump Care

Post by BirdWatcher on Thu Jul 27, 2017 9:57 pm

Teetime wrote:Health care costs just keep spiraling upward and Universal care will apply the brakes.

Warren Buffet re-framed Healthcare costs into a Republican issue last week when he stated that his businesses are at a competitive disadvantage in the global economy because they provide health insurance, whereas foreign businesses don't.

I think Trump is a single-payer guy at heart...

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Re: Trump Care

Post by ramblinman on Fri Jul 28, 2017 10:36 am

BirdWatcher wrote:I predict that by the end of Trump's second term there will be a national, universal basic health program that covers a yearly doctor's exam, immunizations, emergency care, etc.  Similar to Australia's.   And employers or citizens will have the option to purchase -- across state lines -- any plan above and beyond the basic national plan.  And that you'll be able to purchase your prescriptions from Canada or wherever has the best price.

There will be no second term.

It'll be a miracle if he completes his first one without resigning, being impeached, or dying.
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Re: Trump Care

Post by Head Skin on Fri Jul 28, 2017 10:37 am

ramblinman wrote:
BirdWatcher wrote:I predict that by the end of Trump's second term there will be a national, universal basic health program that covers a yearly doctor's exam, immunizations, emergency care, etc.  Similar to Australia's.   And employers or citizens will have the option to purchase -- across state lines -- any plan above and beyond the basic national plan.  And that you'll be able to purchase your prescriptions from Canada or wherever has the best price.

There will be no second term.  

It'll be a miracle if he completes his first one without resigning, being impeached, or dying.
That's what people said about him winning in the first place.
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Re: Trump Care

Post by ramblinman on Fri Jul 28, 2017 11:05 am

Head Skin wrote:
ramblinman wrote:
BirdWatcher wrote:I predict that by the end of Trump's second term there will be a national, universal basic health program that covers a yearly doctor's exam, immunizations, emergency care, etc.  Similar to Australia's.   And employers or citizens will have the option to purchase -- across state lines -- any plan above and beyond the basic national plan.  And that you'll be able to purchase your prescriptions from Canada or wherever has the best price.

There will be no second term.  

It'll be a miracle if he completes his first one without resigning, being impeached, or dying.
That's what people said about him winning in the first place.

True. People said it would be a miracle if he won the GOP nomination, and they said it again if he were to win the presidency. Miracles do happen, but they are rare.

He has beaten the odds so many times that I figure the law of averages has to come into play at some point. The mid-term elections are going to be very interesting. If Trump thinks the current Congress is uncooperative, despite a prohibitive bi-cameral Republican majority, just wait.
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Re: Trump Care

Post by ramblinman on Fri Jul 28, 2017 11:22 am

Teetime wrote:The New York Times article you asked me to read was enlightening....

It appears as though the administration's desire was to get a ruling from the Supreme Court during the first Obama term and not have the issue drug out by the Anti-Injunction Act. Almost all of the judges that heard the case in lower courts agreed with the administration's assertion that the penalty was not a tax. That assertion would have delayed a ruling by the high court, so the administration changed it's position to affect a quicker ruling. That seems innocent enough.

If you thought the NYT article was enlightening, what do you think of this gem from healthcare economist and MIT professor Jonathan Gruber, one of the main architects of Obamacare?  

After saying that the ACA bill was spun in such a "tortured way" as to not to score the individual mandate as a tax increase (when it really was), he twice says, "I'd rather have this law than not."  Might as well just come right out and say that the end justifies the means.

Still think it "seems innocent enough?"
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Re: Trump Care

Post by Teetime on Fri Jul 28, 2017 11:45 am

All those lower court judges agreed that it was not a tax....you forgot to address that.

If you don't want to pay the tax/penalty, get a compliant health insurance policy.

Are there other taxes that you can avoid by buying insurance? What if you run your car into your neighbor's across the street. You don't have any auto insurance...you get a ticket for being uninsured. Is that a tax?

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Re: Trump Care

Post by Teetime on Sat Jul 29, 2017 10:57 am

This is from the Wall Street Journal's post-mortem:

There were many other contributors to this debacle. The Freedom Caucus dragged out the process in the House, which created time for opposition to build. Alaska Senator Lisa Murkowski betrayed her many previous votes and public statements. Two GOP Governors, Ohio’s John Kasich and Nevada’s Brian Sandoval, grandiloquently assaulted the bill for their own political gain, which made life difficult for their states’ Senators, Rob Portman and Dean Heller.

The Senate’s GOP moderates conspired to kill both a historic Medicaid reform and repeal of ObamaCare’s myriad taxes. Senators Rand Paul and Mike Lee worked to defeat Majority Leader Mitch McConnell’s compromise draft to no good end. We cannot recall a similar effort by so many to subject their own party to such an abject public humiliation.

Mr. Trump in a tweet blamed the three GOP Senators who voted no, but he was also an architect of his own defeat. Mr. Trump was elected in no small part on his promise to do big deals like this one. In the end he couldn’t close. He never tried to sell the policy to the American public, in part because he knows nothing about health care and couldn’t bother to learn.


https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-republican-obamacare-crack-up-1501280459

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Re: Trump Care

Post by BirdWatcher on Sat Jul 29, 2017 11:35 pm

This is slightly off-topic, but the BBC came to my county and did this story....

Where Trump Is Seen As A Savior

... in case anybody's interested.

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Re: Trump Care

Post by Head Skin on Sun Jul 30, 2017 12:53 am

One thing I was thinking about the other day is how many factions in the GOP there are in comparison to the Dems. I mean, there's the Tea Party like Cruz, Libertarians like Paul, moderates to progressives like McCain, whatever McConnell is, etc. In the Democratic party you currently have pretty far leftists and socialists. The party seems very united.

Their problem lies in the fact that most Americans don't like most of their policies.
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Re: Trump Care

Post by Teetime on Mon Jul 31, 2017 11:21 am

Head Skin wrote:Their problem lies in the fact that most Americans don't like most of their policies.


Right!

Except for:
Environmental Protection
Consumer Protection
Universal Health Care
Medicare
Medicaid
Social Security
Equal Rights
Voting Rights
Minimum Wage
Privacy Rights

Based on a poll conducted in 2014, Gallup found that 30% of Americans identified as Democrats, 23% as Republicans, and 45% as Independents. In the same poll, a survey of registered voters stated that 47% identified as Democrats or leaned towards the party; the same poll found that 40% of registered voters identified as Republicans or leaned towards the Republican party.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_Party_(United_States)


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Re: Trump Care

Post by ramblinman on Mon Jul 31, 2017 2:22 pm

Teetime wrote:All those lower court judges agreed that it was not a tax....you forgot to address that.

Why address it when the top court said it WAS a tax (thanks, in part, to the WH Solicitor General arguing that it was)? Furthermore, the national debate on the ACA was conducted primarily in the halls of congress, on the stump, and in the media, and less so in the lower courts. It was during that national debate that the administration and other ACA apologists were claiming it was not a tax.

Teetime wrote:If you don't want to pay the tax/penalty, get a compliant health insurance policy.

A main concept of Obamacare is that people who CAN'T get a compliant health insurance policy because they don't have a job, or their job doesn't offer that benefit, MUST have insurance of some kind.  That's what the individual mandate is all about.  If you can't get insured through your employer, you must purchase a policy on the open exchange, OR be taxed for it through your federal income taxes.

Teetime wrote:Are there other taxes that you can avoid by buying insurance? What if you run your car into your neighbor's across the street. You don't have any auto insurance...you get a ticket for being uninsured. Is that a tax?

Really?  You see no difference between receiving a moving violation for not carrying auto insurance (which, by the way, is not a federal law) and automatically being taxed by the federal government through your income taxes for not carrying health insurance?
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