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PC 1- History 0

Post by Head Skin on Tue Mar 07, 2017 10:36 am

http://www.cnn.com/2017/03/07/us/new-orleans-lawsuit-confederate-monuments-ruling/index.html
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Re: PC 1- History 0

Post by SIFBCoach7 on Tue Mar 07, 2017 11:03 am

BREAKING NEWS: "Monuments removed - Racism ceases to exist!"

You know, if you get rid of enough artifacts of history, it will be like those things never happened. Is that the goal of groups like this?
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Re: PC 1- History 0

Post by Head Skin on Tue Mar 07, 2017 11:54 am

SIFBCoach7 wrote:BREAKING NEWS:  "Monuments removed - Racism ceases to exist!"

You know, if you get rid of enough artifacts of history, it will be like those things never happened.  Is that the goal of groups like this?
I don't know. Good question.

I'm also intrigued by this because the same groups wanting things such as this removed are the ones behind the mandates for us to, by state law, teach about the Holocaust any time WW II is mentioned. I don't see these groups trying to get the prison camps torn down.
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Re: PC 1- History 0

Post by 19delta on Tue Mar 07, 2017 6:39 pm

I don't think there should be public memorials to Confederate war "heroes". They should all be moved to museums.

Are there memorials in Germany for German soldiers who served in WWI or WWII? Or Italian soldiers from WWII? I know there is a shrine in Tokyo for Japanese soldiers in World War II but it is pretty controversial, at least outside of Japan. But is it common for conquered people to have as many public memorials to a failed war as there are in the South? I am seriously asking that question, I honestly don't know the answer.

I should add that I am a big advocate of secession. But I have a hard time defending the Confederacy.
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Re: PC 1- History 0

Post by Reggie on Wed Mar 08, 2017 1:38 am

My biggest issue with things like this is that they are always taken in the context of today's world rather than the time that they existed. If you asked today if the platform of the Confederacy should be brought back the answer would be a resounding "no". But at the time it was a fairly even split. I am not advocating having Confederate landmarks as places where rednecks gather to worship and imagine a world that stopped evolving in the 1850's. I do prefer that we keep our history as a reminder that this country went through a pretty sorry period but through blood and sacrifice we have come a long way since that sorry period. Removing every single statue, monument, etc. that was created to honor the Confederacy will not change history.
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Re: PC 1- History 0

Post by SIFBCoach7 on Wed Mar 08, 2017 9:48 am

Reggie wrote:My biggest issue with things like this is that they are always taken in the context of today's world rather than the time that they existed.  If you asked today if the platform of the Confederacy should be brought back the answer would be a resounding "no".  But at the time it was a fairly even split.  I am not advocating having Confederate landmarks as places where rednecks gather to worship and imagine a world that stopped evolving in the 1850's.   I do prefer that we keep our history as a reminder that this country went through a pretty sorry period but through blood and sacrifice we have come a long way since that sorry period.  Removing every single statue, monument, etc. that was created to honor the Confederacy will not change history.

This is the point I was attempting to make. Stated perfectly. You can't erase history.
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Re: PC 1- History 0

Post by Head Skin on Wed Mar 08, 2017 10:19 am

19delta wrote:I don't think there should be public memorials to Confederate war "heroes". They should all be moved to museums.

Are there memorials in Germany for German soldiers who served in WWI or WWII? Or Italian soldiers from WWII? I know there is a shrine in Tokyo for Japanese soldiers in World War II but it is pretty controversial, at least outside of Japan. But is it common for conquered people to have as many public memorials to a failed war as there are in the South? I am seriously asking that question, I honestly don't know the answer.

I should add that I am a big advocate of secession. But I have a hard time defending the Confederacy.  
Good questions that I don't know the answer to.

I think it would be more appropriate to compare the Civil War to something like the 30 years war in Germany over religion though. WWI and II had clear aggressors, whereas the 30 years war was more comparable IMO because it involved a war of ideologies. I would wager there are probably some memorials to both the Catholic and Protestant side in Germany to that civil war.
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Re: PC 1- History 0

Post by Head Skin on Wed Mar 08, 2017 10:22 am

Reggie wrote:My biggest issue with things like this is that they are always taken in the context of today's world rather than the time that they existed.  If you asked today if the platform of the Confederacy should be brought back the answer would be a resounding "no".  But at the time it was a fairly even split.  I am not advocating having Confederate landmarks as places where rednecks gather to worship and imagine a world that stopped evolving in the 1850's.   I do prefer that we keep our history as a reminder that this country went through a pretty sorry period but through blood and sacrifice we have come a long way since that sorry period.  Removing every single statue, monument, etc. that was created to honor the Confederacy will not change history.
I would also wager the majority of the people that are "outraged" by these landmarks probably have never taken the time to actually visit them or had no idea what they were for until someone made a big deal about them on social media.

I mean, they've been there for what? 140 years at least? And they've just had issue with them in the past 5?
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Re: PC 1- History 0

Post by Teetime on Mon Mar 13, 2017 10:07 am

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/in-northern-georgia-a-kkk-banner-seemed-to-some-a-sign-of-the-times/2017/03/12/de5a3518-05bd-11e7-b9fa-ed727b644a0b_story.html?utm_term=.59e91eac022c&wpisrc=nl_az_most&wpmk=1

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Re: PC 1- History 0

Post by OSUBucks on Mon Mar 13, 2017 7:46 pm

Teetime wrote:https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/in-northern-georgia-a-kkk-banner-seemed-to-some-a-sign-of-the-times/2017/03/12/de5a3518-05bd-11e7-b9fa-ed727b644a0b_story.html?utm_term=.59e91eac022c&wpisrc=nl_az_most&wpmk=1

Interesting read. It just shows the divisions and mistrust that exist. Looking at our country today, whether it be our politicians or in general, there seems to be more rancor than at any time I can remember. It's a bad situation.
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Re: PC 1- History 0

Post by SIFBCoach7 on Tue Mar 14, 2017 8:57 am

Not even sure what to post as a snarky comment...just saddens me.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/13/nyregion/ny-regents-teacher-exams-alst.html?_r=0

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Re: PC 1- History 0

Post by Head Skin on Tue Mar 14, 2017 9:01 am

One thing we talk about in our social studies classes- especially sociology- is that when you have the biggest amount of social change, you also see the biggest resistance to that change.

If you think about all that has become more socially acceptable over the past 20 years, a kick back is inevitable history would teach us.
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Re: PC 1- History 0

Post by Pike Bishop on Thu Mar 23, 2017 5:58 pm

Head Idiot wrote:One thing we talk about in our social studies classes- especially sociology- is that when you have the biggest amount of social change, you also see the biggest resistance to that change.

If you think about all that has become more socially acceptable over the past 20 years, a kick back is inevitable history would teach us.

I taught U.S. History at Washington Middle School (the "U") in Springfield for 23 years. There is an ongoing debate which is tougher to teach at, WMS or NET's old school Jefferson MS. One day i'm doing hall duty and a young black 7th grader comes walking by me wearing a black T-shirt with a big Confederate battle flag on it. Under the flag was the phrase "You wear your X and I'll wear mine".
The phrase referred to the Malcom X T-shirts kids were wearing back then. I asked the young man where he got the shirt. He replied his parents got it at a garage sale for him because they thought it was cool. I then gave him a brief summary on the Civil War, slavery, and want some people (esp. Black Americans) feel that flag represents. 7th graders take Geography not U. S. History.
He was totally clueless about the Civil War and the flag like his parents. I am a Civil War buff, and have seen and walked through many Civil War battlefields. There is a great deal of history that can be learned from these battlefields and monuments whether Union or Confederate. Both sides thought they were right. Tearing down and erasing half the story does not help solve any problems.

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Re: PC 1- History 0

Post by 19delta on Thu Mar 23, 2017 8:35 pm

Pike Bishop wrote:
Head Idiot wrote:One thing we talk about in our social studies classes- especially sociology- is that when you have the biggest amount of social change, you also see the biggest resistance to that change.

If you think about all that has become more socially acceptable over the past 20 years, a kick back is inevitable history would teach us.

I taught U.S. History at Washington Middle School (the "U") in Springfield for 23 years. There is an ongoing debate which is tougher to teach at, WMS or NET's old school Jefferson MS. One day i'm doing hall duty and a young black 7th grader comes walking by me wearing a black T-shirt with a big Confederate battle flag on it. Under the flag was the phrase "You wear your X and I'll wear mine".
The phrase referred to the Malcom X T-shirts kids were wearing back then. I asked the young man where he got the shirt. He replied his parents got it at a garage sale for him because they thought it was cool. I then gave him a brief summary on the Civil War, slavery, and want some people (esp. Black Americans) feel that flag represents. 7th graders take Geography not U. S. History.
He was totally clueless about the Civil War and the flag like his parents. I am a Civil War buff, and have seen and walked through many Civil War battlefields. There is a great deal of history that can be learned from these battlefields and monuments whether Union or Confederate. Both sides thought they were right. Tearing down and erasing half the story does not help solve any problems.

You can make an argument that the South fought the Civil War to preserve federalism or to keep tariffs low. There is certainly evidence to suggest that. But, overwhelmingly, the South fought the war to preserve and even expand slavery. That was like 95% of it. The men who led the South during the Civil War and have many of these memorials dedicated in their "honor" wanted to keep in place a brutal system that was based on terrorism and white supremacy.

And that is not just my opinion. That is what the Southern leaders themselves said about their primary reason for leaving the Union:

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/19th_century/csa_scarsec.asp

My long-winded point is that the history of the Civil War is not being erased if these memorials are removed from public spaces or placed in museums in which they can be exhibited within the proper context--chiefly that the primary reason the war was fought was to keep an entire race of people enslaved.

The memorials in question aren't a tribute to some noble lost cause...we aren't talking about the Poles during the Warsaw Uprising here. These Southern Civil War memorials help obfuscate the simple fact that the war was waged by the South to preserve a monstrous system. Yes...the young men who fought in the Confederate armies were tough and brave and patriotic. But they also fought to keep Africans enslaved, whether or not they themselves owned slaves. The cause they struggled for (and the cause for which many of them were horribly maimed or killed) was ultimately corrupt and illegitimate. It follows that a cause such as that should not be publicly celebrated or even commemorated. The cause of the South during the Civil War, like other failed causes waged for inhuman purposes, rightfully belongs in a museum and not in public spaces.
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Re: PC 1- History 0

Post by OSUBucks on Thu Mar 23, 2017 8:59 pm

Pike Bishop wrote:
Head Idiot wrote:One thing we talk about in our social studies classes- especially sociology- is that when you have the biggest amount of social change, you also see the biggest resistance to that change.

If you think about all that has become more socially acceptable over the past 20 years, a kick back is inevitable history would teach us.

I taught U.S. History at Washington Middle School (the "U") in Springfield for 23 years. There is an ongoing debate which is tougher to teach at, WMS or NET's old school Jefferson MS. One day i'm doing hall duty and a young black 7th grader comes walking by me wearing a black T-shirt with a big Confederate battle flag on it. Under the flag was the phrase "You wear your X and I'll wear mine".
The phrase referred to the Malcom X T-shirts kids were wearing back then. I asked the young man where he got the shirt. He replied his parents got it at a garage sale for him because they thought it was cool. I then gave him a brief summary on the Civil War, slavery, and want some people (esp. Black Americans) feel that flag represents. 7th graders take Geography not U. S. History.
He was totally clueless about the Civil War and the flag like his parents. I am a Civil War buff, and have seen and walked through many Civil War battlefields. There is a great deal of history that can be learned from these battlefields and monuments whether Union or Confederate. Both sides thought they were right. Tearing down and erasing half the story does not help solve any problems.

Excellent post. I agree with your sentiments. I have read a number of books on the Civil War as I've always found that period of history interesting. If I just had to recommend one book for someone who wasn't all that familiar with the Civil War it might be McPherson's Battle Cry of Freedom. Jeffery Wert's book on James Longstreet and Porter Alexander's Fighting for the Confederacy are two others I'd highly recommend.
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Re: PC 1- History 0

Post by Head Skin on Mon Apr 24, 2017 1:20 pm

The first of the 4 monuments was taken down today. At 3 am. With a full police guard. And all of the workers in masks.

Yep, that's right...
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Re: PC 1- History 0

Post by Head Skin on Mon Apr 24, 2017 1:24 pm

http://www.cnn.com/2017/04/24/us/new-orleans-confederate-statues/index.html

CNN wrote:In the dark of night, workers wearing masks and tactical vests arrived Monday at New Orleans' Battle of Liberty Place monument to take it down.

Police snipers were positioned on nearby rooftops, according to The Times-Picayune newspaper, and the trucks and equipment used in the operation had company names covered by cardboard and black tape.
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Re: PC 1- History 0

Post by Teetime on Thu May 25, 2017 4:43 pm

The mayor of New Orleans gave a great speech about the removal of the NO monuments. I'm assigning it for summer reading.....

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/05/we-cant-walk-away-from-this-truth/527721/

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